Once Upon a Stranger: Can Small Talk Lead to a Bigger Life? (#305)

3 Takeaways™ Podcast Transcript

Lynn Thoman

(https://www.3takeaways.com/)

This transcript was auto-generated. Please forgive any errors.

Lynn Thoman: Millions of people feel disconnected today, even while spending all day around other people. We wear headphones in public, we stare at our phones in elevators, we order coffee without speaking. At the exact moment technology promises to connect us more than ever, many people have stopped talking to each other in everyday life. 

But what if the tiny interactions we overlook, the quick chat with a stranger, the brief exchange in line, the smile from someone we'll never see again, matter far more than we realize. 

Hi everyone, I'm Lynn Thoman, and this is 3 Takeaways. On 3 Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers, and scientists.

Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world, and maybe even ourselves a little better. 

Lynn Thoman: Today, I'm delighted to be joined by Gillian Sandstrom, a psychologist at the University of Sussex, whose research explores the surprising power of everyday conversation. Her work has challenged the way many of us think about strangers, small talk, and the quiet moments that shape our lives.

Her new book, which is wonderful, is Once Upon a Stranger. 

Gillian, welcome. It's great to have you on 3 Takeaways.

Gillian Sandstorm: Thank you, I'm so delighted to be here. 

Lynn Thoman: I am excited for this conversation. Can one conversation with a stranger actually change a life?

Gillian Sandstorm: Absolutely. I have had conversations with strangers that have literally changed my life, you know, changed the course of my career, changed the hobbies that I engage in. I mean, my husband used to be a stranger.

Everyone that you know, unless you're related to them, used to be a stranger, right? So I absolutely believe that individual conversations can change your life. Can you give a couple of examples of those?

I guess the reason that I do this job and do the research that I do is because it all started with a conversation with a stranger. I was a very shy kid, and so this wasn't something that I generally did until I hit my thirties. And I had this one amazing conversation on the subway in Toronto with a woman.

She had a cupcake in a little plastic container, and I just really wanted to know where she got this beautiful cupcake. And so I asked her. I thought she would just tell me and that would be it, but we kept talking, and she taught me that people can ride ostriches.

And it was just such a surprising, you know, delightful kind of conversation. And that was the starting point of me ending up where I've ended up, because I couldn't believe that there was so much to be learned and how enjoyable it could be to have these little tiny conversations. So I feel like that conversation changed my life.

It's changed the course of my career, and it was the first of, you know, now hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of conversations with strangers that have really enriched my life.

Lynn Thoman: You met your husband through a stranger conversation, and you also got your job through a stranger conversation.

Gillian Sandstorm: Yeah, I did. So the job, it was, I had gone to a conference and I'm an introvert, conferences are a bit much. And so I always sort of go through this.

Should I go? Should I not go? And I bet some friends sort of convinced me to go.

And I went to a talk, and having had some practice at this time talking to strangers, I, you know, I think it helped me feel a little bit braver about putting up my hand and asking a question of the speaker. And then I saw him later in the hallway and had a little chat and complimented him on his talk. And that, you know, in a roundabout way over a little while ended up with me getting a new job.

So not a thing you could have predicted. And I think that's one of the fun things about talking to strangers is often things that you never could have expected just sort of manifest, you know? 

So I think a lot of people have asked, why should I do this? 

What am I going to get from it? And I think it's better if we don't expect anything. You know, I think most of these conversations, it's a beautiful moment, and then you walk away and you never see the person again.

And there's something kind of nice and perfect about that. And having that, what might have been, it's nice to have that feeling, but then sometimes it does lead to these really concrete things. I think people like to do nice things for you if they enjoy talking to you.

Lynn Thoman: So it's not that every conversation will be transformative. It's just, you can't know which one will be.

Gillian Sandstorm: Exactly. And I think they all matter anyway. So I think, you know, every once in a while, there's one that has changed my life. 

Then there's a lot that are just enjoyable or valuable or meaningful in some way. And then there's a lot that are just kind of, you know, forgettable. But I think that they add up to something that's bigger than the sum of its parts.

Because now that I've spoken to so many strangers and I do it so regularly, I walk through the world differently. I see the world differently. It feels safer.

I feel more trusting of other people. And I feel like I know what my place is in the world. And that's just a really, it's not really a tangible thing, but I think it's the biggest shift for me.

Lynn Thoman: And warmer. Does the world feel warmer? 

Yeah, safer, more trusting.

Gillian Sandstorm: Just, you know, I know there's bad people in the world, but most people are just trying to get by, like you and me, so.

Lynn Thoman: Your research shows that people almost always feel better after talking to a stranger than they expected to. Why are we so bad at predicting that?

Gillian Sandstorm: I think it comes back to this fundamental need to belong. Maslow, a lot of people are familiar with Maslow and his famous pyramid of needs. He talked about this way back then, just how important this feeling of belonging is to humans.

And it's since been confirmed with all the empirical data that came out after Maslow came up with his theory. But it seems that humans just cannot thrive. Like we suffer when we don't feel that sense of connection to each other, that feeling that we are valued and accepted and part of the group.

So I think belonging is so important to us. We really want to get this right. It's really important that we get it right. 

And so we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and it would be a disaster if we didn't get it right, if people excluded us. Yeah, the research shows that we all seem to have this voice that's telling us we just don't know what we're doing, that we aren't capable of having a social chat with people. We all feel this way.

And so we have all these expectations about all the things that could go wrong if we talk to someone, but they almost never do happen. And over a series of studies, you find consistently that these conversations go better than we think. People like us more than we think.

We learn more than we think, than we expect to, so.

Lynn Thoman: It's so interesting to me that everyone or almost everyone catastrophizes. They imagine rejection, awkwardness, boring the other person. They imagine the worst version of themselves and the other person.

I was surprised that the data is remarkably consistent, that it goes better than we think almost every time. 

Gillian Sandstorm: Yeah, we're so mean to ourselves. We're so hard on ourselves.

It's so interesting that we replay the clumsy moment, the joke that didn't land, and the other person just mostly thinks that was nice. Or that wasn't so bad. I just talked to a stranger and it was okay.

Yeah, so we are sort of reliably, systematically wrong. 

Lynn Thoman: Do introverts benefit just as much from talking to strangers as extroverts?

Gillian Sandstorm: Yeah, as far as we can tell. So introverts are definitely more worried before having a conversation. So they worry more about all the things that can go wrong, but tend to enjoy conversations just as much.

And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about introverts. It's really about preference for how much social interaction you have. But introverts, it's not like we don't have friends or don't like people.

That's not what it's about. And in terms of social skills, we're just as capable of having interactions as well.

Lynn Thoman: What are some memorable conversations that you've had with strangers?

Gillian Sandstorm: I have two short stories I'd love to share, two that really stick with me. So one was a time when I was on the Tube (the subway) in London and I'd done something really exciting in the morning. And so I was kind of jazzed up.

So I saw someone on the train and I said, hey, how's your morning gone? And she responded, but it was lukewarm. And I thought, I guess this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.

But then I think she felt like she needed to be polite and asked the same question to me. And that's generally how it works. If you open up to someone, they open up to you.

So she said, how's your morning been? And I said, actually, I've had a pretty exciting morning and I told her all about it. And then she responded in turn and it turned out she had had a more exciting morning because she had just been to the doctor and she had just learned that she's pregnant.

And surely she's not going to tell anyone because you wait and to make sure everything's fine. But it was safe for her to tell me because I was never going to see her again. I wasn't going to tell any of her friends. 

So yeah, we shared a hug on the Tube and it was just, I felt so lucky to have been there that day and shared that moment with her. So that was an especially memorable one. 

And then another time I was on holiday and I saw a dog and I went up to meet the dog and ended up talking to the dog's human who turned out to be a very interesting man.

This was in like this little tiny tourist town. And he said, why don't you come over to my house? It's just over here.

Come over for a drink. I was with my husband. So that felt like a fairly safe thing to do.

So we went and we had a drink with this nice man. And it turned out he was a theatrical wig maker and he's just had this amazing story to tell about how he'd come to this particular unusual kind of job. And we just had a really interesting conversation.

And before we left, he has a piano in his house and he and I played a little duet on his piano. And this was just such a delightful thing. So yeah, I think of him all the time when I'm on holiday.

Two very memorable situations.

Lynn Thoman: Gillian, you ran an early study at a Starbucks. What happened?

Gillian Sandstorm: So this came from me wanting to study actually the idea of being a regular. We have this sense that there's something to be gained from being a regular at a coffee shop and having someone who works there who knows your name and knows your order. And I really wanted to study that, but I couldn't figure out how to do that in a rigorous way scientifically.

What I ended up doing is recruiting people who were on the sidewalk outside of a coffee shop. And I bribed them with a gift card and then asked them to follow one of two sets of instructions. So in the one case, some people were asked to just be as efficient as possible, which I think is probably the normal thing that people do.

So just have your money ready and avoid unnecessary conversation. Just get in there, get your coffee and get out. And then the other group, I asked them to try and, you're going to do all that too.

You're going to buy your coffee, but can you turn it into a little moment of social contact? Smile at the person, make eye contact, have a little chat. It doesn't take any longer, right?

You're still, you're waiting the same amount of time for that coffee to be prepared. But it's this little opportunity, I think, to turn it into a social moment. And so people went in, they followed their instructions, they came out of the store and then I asked them to fill in a little survey.

And what we found was that people who had taken advantage of that moment as an opportunity for a human connection were in a better mood and they felt more connected to other people. They were even a little more satisfied with their experience at the coffee shop. So a little tiny shift that we control, right?

It didn't even depend on who was working at the coffee shop. It was us walking in and creating that little moment. 

Lynn Thoman: So that genuine friendly exchange actually matters. People feel better and that the efficient approach came at a hidden cost that most people never even noticed they were paying.

Gillian Sandstorm: Yes, absolutely. And so I think that these are these little moments that we're not taking advantage of and they mean more for our happiness than we're aware of. They're so fundamental to us.

Lynn Thoman: One of the many stories in your book that stays with me is when the Tube in London was backed up and you were walking, you walked through a park and there was a guy standing watching some cute ducklings.

Gillian Sandstorm: Yeah, I'll try to tell that story without crying. There was an occasion where I was in London and I was attending a conference and it was this beautiful day. So I thought, I'm not going to take the Tube, I'm going to walk straight to the train.

And I went through this park and there was these cute little fuzzy ducklings. And I saw this sort of younger man watching them. And so I used my second tip, comment on something you have in common.

We were both looking at these ducklings. And I said, oh, aren't they cute? And we had this nice chat and it turned out he was traveling on his own for the first time and told me he hadn't talked to anyone for a few days.

It felt nice to be able to give him this moment. I know what it's like when it's traveling. It's nice to have moments of connection and meet new people.

And we ended up walking together for about 15 minutes, had this nice chat. And then a couple of years later, I was walking sort of along the same path because the Tube was backed up. And so I was walking the same way.

And it reminded me of this conversation I'd had. Shortly after that, it was this weird coincidence, I got this email and it turned out to be from the man that I had met in the park.

He had remembered that I do this research. He'd come across some article on the internet, saw my picture, realized, you know, that it was the person that he'd talked to in the park. And he wrote this beautiful email saying that it had really stuck with him and it had made him a bit braver about reaching out.

And he'd met new friends and had a new girlfriend and he credited it to this conversation we'd had. It's the best email I've ever received. I just find it incredibly moving.

Lynn Thoman: How do you actually start a conversation with somebody that you don't know? What do you say?

Gillian Sandstorm: I came up with sort of three main ways that I tend to start a conversation. And together they spelled the word quick. Q-U stands for question, the I-C stands for in common and the K stands for kindness.

But you can ask someone about what they're wearing. I've started so many conversations just by saying, what you doing? You know, I've noticed someone once, they looked like they were taking a picture of a fence and that didn't seem to make sense to me.

So I was like, hey, what you doing? Or I saw in a park, there was this group of people all huddled over this piece of equipment. And I said, what you doing?

They were measuring gravity. It was near a university. So asking people some questions.

I like walking. So I might see people with binoculars around their neck and I'll just say, hey, what have you seen today? Or what are you hoping to see?

You know, you just have to pay attention. And I think that's one of the things that shifts once you start doing this, start talking to people more often as you start paying attention to the world around you a bit more. So yeah, once you start doing it, it gets easier and easier to find those kinds of questions that you can use to start conversations. 

Second thing was in common. I think that's why we talk about the weather because it's a shared situation, but you could talk about the place. You know, so if I'm at the theater, I'll say, oh, why did you decide to come to this show?

And have you seen, you know, what else have you seen lately? That kind of thing. And then the K stands for kindness.

And you know, my mom's favorite way to start a conversation with a stranger is to give someone a compliment, you know, a sincere compliment. And I mean, I just did this recently. I was on the bus and this woman got on and I said, wow, that color looks really great on you.

And she had this huge smile and it felt so good to me to be able to give her that big smile. So compliments, you can also offer someone some help. You can offer someone a seat at your table.

So there's lots of different ways that you can offer something kind to a stranger.

Lynn Thoman: So you don't really need an opening line. It sounds like you often need an observation, something they're experiencing or you're both already experiencing, whether it's a dog, a delayed train, an unusual order. 

Gillian Sandstorm:  Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You spot on that it usually comes from being observant, maybe tapping into your curiosity and just being open. So yeah, rather than a line, it's more about a pathway.

And then staying curious. Absolutely. There will likely be an awkward moment at the beginning because it's not the norm in most places to talk to a stranger.

So people at the beginning are probably going to be wondering, who are you? Do I know you? And then, uh-oh, what is happening right now?

Do you want something? Are you hitting on me? Like, what is happening?

And so I think it does take a little bit of patience to get to the point where they realize that you're just being friendly and it's just going to be a nice moment. And once you get there, everything is smooth. And if sometimes you don't get there and you just, you have to back away.

You don't want to be the, you know, you don't want to be creepy and you don't want to bother people. So I think it's worth persisting for a little bit, gently being patient, realizing that there will be that awkwardness, but then, you know, most of the time it all works out okay.

Lynn Thoman: What's one small shift anyone listening can make today?

Gillian Sandstorm: The very first step that I had to change was eye contact. You know, you can't really talk to someone if you're not looking at them. And I think that so many of us are not looking around us at the world anymore.

We're looking on our phones or we're just stuck inside of our head. Just starting to pay attention to people might be the very first thing that you could do.

Lynn Thoman: And then just starting conversations with strangers.

Gillian Sandstorm: Yeah, I think there's baby steps. So it depends sort of how anxious you are. So that can be the first step.

You could start practicing in your head, starting what you might say to start a conversation with someone, you know, start tapping into those powers of observation and thinking of what you might say. Then you might smile at people, then you might have a greeting and you can work your way up a little bit at a time to actually starting a conversation.

Lynn Thoman: Gillian, what are the three takeaways that you want people to walk away with today?

Gillian Sandstorm: Number one, I would like people to be aware of the negative voice in their heads. So we have a voice that's lying to us about our social skills and about how other people are perceiving us. And you're already more capable than you think, even if you're an introvert like me, and you can improve and feel more comfortable with practice.

Number two, there is so much to gain from talking to strangers. It's a source of enjoyment and connection and it really can enrich your life. 

Number three, talking to strangers is also an act of kindness.

It's an act of humanity in our increasingly disconnected world.

Lynn Thoman: I love the idea that the world gets a little warmer every time we say hello. Let's do it together.  

Gillian, this has been a genuine pleasure and I think it's going to change how a lot of people move through their day.

The book is Once Upon a Stranger and it is well worth your time. 

Gillian, thank you so much for joining 3 Takeaways today. 

Gillian Sandstorm: Thank you for having me. 

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I’m Lynn Thoman and this is 3 Takeaways. Thanks for listening.

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