88. Steve Larson (Insted)

I apologize to the fans of the pod in Europe, especially the Crystal Palace supporters in England and my boys in Sweden. But yeah, so hit me up, 185milesouth at gmail.com. First to get that Annihilation Time CD, and you're fucking stoked. Now, please support the pod. You got to subscribe to it wherever you listen to it and share with your buddies, repost it on social media. Whatever you can do to get the word out, that is much appreciated.

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We'll discuss the discography of whoever I interviewed. And it's a good time. In fact, some of those pods we've done, some of the Patreon ones, I think they're the best stuff we've done. You know, especially like the Hartsfield one, the Mandel one, et cetera, et cetera. But let's get on with the pod.

Um, and from there it just grew, you know, like I started recording, um, a radio show that's local in Orange County, Los Angeles called Rodney on the rock. And, um, Rodney on the rock really gets more credit than anyone else besides my friend, Neil. Um, in that he really was bringing a lot of underground punk and hardcore and playing it regularly on the weekends on KROQ. So that's where I first heard Youth Brigade. That's where I first heard Minor Threat, Bad Brain, things like that.

That's when I transitioned into American hardcore from American punk and English punk.

So like, I remember waiting in line at Licorice Pizza with my dad to pick up, you know, one of the Led Zeppelin releases on the day it came out. So, you know, that kind of thing was already, normal in my house, loud music going all the time. It was just loud, classic rock. You know what I mean?

But, um, for me, you know, even, even, you know, with, with classic rock, some of it being kind of rowdy, it was nothing compared to hearing, you know, the dead Kennedy's, um, Nazi punk fuck off, you know? And, you know, looking back at, you know, getting into it, like the lyrics, the nihilism didn't appeal to me. necessarily. Um, but the sound and energy and emotions of it did. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? I think it does.

Um, and my parents were really cool, which is, um, you know, it usually sets one way or the other, like parents are really against it and afraid of it for lack of a better term or they're, you know, they support the kid.

And since my parents were into music and, And, uh, you know, some of that stuff was cutting edge when, you know, when they were coming up, some of that classic rock, they, they understood and they let me be, you know, they never told me like, this is satanic or this is, you know, whatever. They just, they just let me be and let me keep discovering.

So I would see him like every other week or something like that. And for, you know, Saturday and part of Sunday. And, and so I had a lot of time to myself and what I started doing was just kind of branching out on my own, um, and getting deeper and deeper into it than he was even. And so, um, I, I actually didn't go to any shows until I was a sophomore in high school, I think.

maybe a freshman definitely a sophomore in high school you know uh just got a ride to fenders or flash dance i don't even remember what my first show was to be honest with you um because it just seemed like at that point in my life i was just constantly listening to punk and hardcore and ska um and i always had eclectic taste in music and maybe eclectic isn't the right word you know i like i like uh you know, early ska. I like classic rock, um, shamelessly.

Um, I love punk and hardcore, but I, I really, um, I used to get made up fun of a lot because I was really into what they called at the time, college rock. Um, you know, like I would, I would get REM records and I would get, um, uh, shoot, I don't know, fill in the blank with any college radio band at the time, you know, in the early eighties. People are like, what are you listening to? You know?

But, um, anyways, uh, I wish I could share with you what that first show was, but I really don't recall what it was. Um, I can say some of the earliest shows I saw were uniform choice just before screening for change came out. Jesus. What was that like? Oh my God, dude.

So, so let me, let me, you know, I, I hate, uh, you know, going all over the place like, unfortunately it's going to need to work that way because you're going to jog different memories for me so at some point on Rodney on the Rock I hear minor threats I am from a lower middle class family with a lot of drug and alcohol problems on both sides my mom's side and my dad's side everybody around me was just I felt like I was constantly surrounded by parties like you know people at our house that's

going to someone else's house again my parents were young right And, you know, I was just seeing all these people bottom out around me. And to be honest and perfectly transparent, I was going that route too at a very early age, probably 12 years old. It was the first time I was drunk, you know. And I didn't like it. I didn't like where I was going. But until I heard Minor Threat and was like, that really, and I've heard this a lot on your podcast, but it changed everything for me.

Because then I was like, wait a minute. There's other people that feel like I feel. This is amazing. Now, hardcore has taken on a whole new perspective for me. Now, I'm not just listening to nihilistic political lyrics. I'm listening to suburban kids who are pissed off about everybody being drunk and drugged out buffoons around them. Going back to what you were asking originally uniform choice, man, uh, I, I never got to see minor threat lives. Let's get that out of the way.

Uh, but uniform choice was, that was a life changing experience in itself as well. Um, Pat Dubar was like a big brother to all the, the, the straight edge kids, um, or the, you know, the kids that weren't down with, with all the nastiness that permeated our Orange County and LA shows. And the guy took shit from no one. And, you know, just watching the energy of that, you know, when they were still fresh, it was, I was just like, how do I get more involved in this?

This is where I need to be at all times.

And, you know, but

And, uh, I, I was all in after I saw them the first time, you know, seven seconds with them that night. I saw them. I don't know. I don't know if it's one show or two shows, but I, I definitely saw, it's not the same night, close night together. Um, seven seconds, um, before the crew and uniform choice right before, um, screen for change came out. And, um, Those two events changed me forever.

So... it was just like, number one, it was in a terrible neighborhood, um, in long beach. And I don't know that my parents would have been cool with me going where I was going. Had they actually known, um, it probably was allowed to happen because they liked my friends and my parents were, it was a different era too.

You know, like parents, uh, didn't, this is going to sound wrong, but they didn't know as much as we know now about the dangers of places and, and how, in, in how much you can keep track of your kids now. And I'm speaking from, from experience having three children myself, but, um, it was, you know, there was the lab, there was circle one, there was the Mickey mouse club, and I'm sure I'm forgetting others, but it was purely, I'm sure some of those guys were there for the music.

But a lot of them were there for the chaos and the potential violence. And I clearly remember seeing, I think it was GBH at Fenders. Those bills were so eclectic back then. And I really miss how we got away from that later on in the 80s. But that's another question or another part of the story.

um but i clearly remember uh you know being at the edge of the pit up towards the front of the stage and and i could literally as loud as ear blistering as it was i could literally hear the sounds of fists hitting faces boots hitting heads ribs like it was just it was nasty man So, you know, it was really no different than the streets. And again, you know, I was lower middle class, probably closer to lower class than middle class.

I grew up in a, you know, a poor neighborhood and there was a lot of violence in my neighborhood. And so for me, it wasn't so bad because I learned how to function in gang areas in that, you know, like just the acknowledgement of somebody or a group of people in a gang. when you're walking by without making too much eye contact, without looking like a victim, those things pay off, you know? And those are things that if you're not in those areas, you don't even think about, you know?

So for me, senders was a lot the same as my neighborhood with, you know, GDH or, uh, Fang or, or Dr. No is a backdrop to violence. You know what I mean?

I was just standing in the doorway. Like, Oh my God, this is, how do I get one of these? You know, and I knew, I knew what it was, but I can tell you at 10 years old, instantly, I knew that I wanted to play drums right then and there. And, and so I held onto that thought. And when it was time to go into junior high, um, I wanted to sign up for band because I wanted to learn how to play drum set, you know, and my parents didn't have the means to get me lessons.

And so it was an opportunity to go after it. And my goal, honestly, was to play well enough to play in a band. When I first had this thought, it wasn't about punk bands. And then eventually it became, I want to be good enough to be in a punk band, right? So, yeah, I mean, what I didn't know going into junior high was, well, they don't teach you drum sets right out. You've got to learn how to hold your sticks. You've got to learn how to play the snare drum.

You've got to learn how to play the... the marching bass, you know, things like that.

So I had this weird, at that time, and this may sound absolutely ridiculous in this day and age, but at that time, people didn't do sports and bands. Just very, very few people did. And I can say that while I did it, I didn't know anybody who did. through junior high and into high school. So I was willing to take any criticism, which I got very little of because it turns out that people were cool with me in general. So that probably made it easier to stick with it too, to be honest.

But I stuck with it. I got a little bit of introduction to drum kit and then going into high school, Um, all the drumline guys really took me in and that was a whole different vibe, like going into high school marching band. And I was, you know, playing football and playing baseball, but in, in, in high school, in the summer, you're, you're doing, you're basically training, like you train for football season.

So I was bouncing, you know, like I'd go to, I'd go to band camp in the summer and I would leave there for a little while, go do my, my hell week for football. You know, the, you know, the days of the hell week were like almost in direct alignment and then come back to band camp, beat the shit, sweaty, whatever, you know. And it was just a means to an end for me, you know. And I got to know some guys. I got to know more about drum kit. I, you know, knew how to read music enough.

Everything was coming together as planned. And then eventually, I somehow got my parents to agree to buy a drum set that they probably couldn't afford. And, uh, and at that point, um, where I lived in a very small, like craftsman bungalow in Anaheim. And, uh, it was literally like 800 square foot house, but it was just me and my parents. And, uh, but we, it was like on a big, big piece of land, you know?

So the, um, the garage was a two car garage and it was like way away from the house and back. And there was like, it, it, it went, it backed up to an alley.

So like I could, uh, go out there set up my drums i like soundproof walls put up mattresses they'd create anything i could find and just started putting on headphones and playing along to whatever i could you know and i was playing along to fear the record i was playing along to mommy's little monster 1942 social distortion as well so that's kind of did i answer the question or i get way off base there i've lost myself

Backyard parties were really big in the mid-'80s, early-'80s, mid-'80s. Somebody would get a couple of kegs, charge five bucks, have us in the backyard. As entertainment, people would do what they thought was punk and pit, you know, get wasted, get high. And, and then, like I said, eventually Kevin started doing donut shop rock with us. And it was like, wait a minute, this guy is actually a good front man.

And, um, people were into it, you know, like our, our friends, we had a group of friends in high school that were into punk. Like my, my school was, was largely Hispanic. And I would say probably I'm guessing at the time, probably 70% Hispanic, 20% white, 10%, you know, mix of Asian, black, whatever. Right. So all the white kids at Anaheim high school were into surfing, skateboarding, hardcore or metal. Like that's what everybody did, you know?

So we were getting a lot of support, even though it was probably only a handful of people looking back. Um, and it was fun too. Like it was fun. Like when Kevin would grab the mic, it was more fun than when the singer of our little cover band was singing. Right. Everybody got super excited. So, um, then, then it basically that band evolved into instead and writing original music to answer your question.

Like I'd be sitting on the bench outside the locker room, like just putting on my cleats and whatnot, getting ready for football practice. And he'd roll up in his, in his full painted leather with spikes on it and bondage pants and socks. And he always wore a fisherman's hat. And he would just come sit down next to me and put his arm on my shoulder and be like, what's up, Larry? He used to call me Larry. Everybody called me Larson. He called me Larry. To this day, he calls me Larry.

And he's basically just trying to sell me on the idea like we should just do this. And so I don't even remember if we had a discussion with the guy who was singing in our cover band. Because essentially, like I said, all we did was swap singers. And, and then we had a half pipe in the backyard of the McLaughlin brothers garage where we rehearsed. And, uh, that half pipe, uh, got us some notoriety as well.

Like these guys would love to come, you know, like, you know, it was just like a four foot half pipe. So like a mini, you know, um, like guys, like big time guys came and skated that ramp. and big time skaters at that time, pros. And it was cool for them. We were in the garage making music. It all seemed normal. All those things went together. But going back to your question, it was just a natural evolution. And that's the best way I can describe it. It was an evolution into what we did.

And I was really into, even though I didn't know how to play guitar, I understood things like song structure and whatnot. So I had a lot of ideas that I was able to say, mouth mimic to our guitar player. Like I remember distinctly live and let live. Tell him, yeah, I want to do something like, and it became a big part of a big song for us, you know? So again, you know, in a nutshell, it was just natural evolution.

And, you know, that's weird, too, that there's not a lot of basements in Southern California. But we recorded with this guy, and it was a weird process. It was a learning. We were all learning as we were going. But I think, if I remember right, on the demo, we still recorded it all live. We didn't really overtrack anything. Maybe vocals got overtracked.

because I can say when we went to go do bonds of friendship, I still did not understand multi-tracking completely by the time we entered the studio.

And I was like, damn.

And, uh, you know, we all love doggy style too. You know, they were Fullerton or Placentia and, and we were Anaheim boys. And, and, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of good pump came out of that area, um, before, you know, you're thinking about Huntington beach and the just Orange County had a lot of good pumps that came out of it. Fullerton in particular. Um, so yeah, I mean, it was just a, it was a mix of emotions, but I had been playing in marching band.

I played football, you know, I was used to being in front of an audience, you know? So for me personally, I was more excited than anything else. That was the thing I felt most. I was excited to be doing it.

And I'm still a pen pal with people all over the United States and Europe. And I'm still just exchanging letters and putting wax on stamps so people can reuse them and trading calling card numbers because that was a big deal for a while. So we could all talk to each other. We'd send each other calling card numbers and you'd get pretty long distance. Buying records. I did most of my record buying locally, but I would trade stuff in the mail.

So I'm just completely immersed in hardcore and hardcore and punk. I feel like I'm going to shows a few nights a week. If I'm not at football or baseball practice or playing a game, I'm at a show or I'm practicing on my own or I'm practicing with Instead. It's just nonstop. I'm in constant motion doing one of those things.

Um, unfortunately, but you know, like if I wanted to go, so what would happen is she would just, put me in front of the TV and, uh, you know, like Lawrence Welk show would be on the entire time. And I'd be like this. So what, what she did have was an epic collection of national geographic magazines and, and life magazine, like just decades of them. And so I would sit there and just go, go through those magazines and look at photos, look at photos, look at photos.

So when we were, When we were working on the demo somewhere around that time, I remembered a photo that I had seen in one of her life magazines. And it was the photo of those three kids from Bonds of Friendship, right? So I went and got it. And then my cousin was a pretty good artist. And I asked him, look, I don't know how to get hold of this photographer. I actually think he's dead.

And Um, you know, I think it would also just be cooler if you could drop like in pencil and he's like, yeah, I could do that. And so he did that. And he's the same guy who also drew Chet from the, you know, the back of the instead shirt. I don't know if you know who Chet is, but the instead, instead, instead, instead shirt with the guy breaking through the instead that's Chet to us.

Um, in fact, the, the way instead is written, um, is, I got that from a guy named John White, who was going to school in Florida, who I was pen pals with. And he was booking shows, hardcore guy. I think he's in Seattle now. Last time I saw him was at John Bunch's Memorial. He came down for that. But I've known that guy since probably 85, 86, you know, via pen pals. But anyways, so that's where the cover concept came from. And the photo in Life Magazine was actually called Fonds of Friendship.

So I hijacked the whole thing, shamelessly. Because I loved it. It had impact on me. And I think it had impact on a lot of other people as well. And I'm happy about that. So then, you know, as I'm going back to this, I'm going to back up a little bit, sorry. As I go back to this Big John show, I think I had it backwards. I think we played with Final Conflict first. And then Doggy Style.

And at the Doggy Style show, Brad had invited Pat and Pat Duvar and Longree from Uniform Choice to come see it. He's like, you know, like, I think you need to see these guys. I think you guys are going to dig them. And so we actually basically got a record deal from our second club show with Wishing Well. Um, and I say record deal loosely, you know, like it was just, it wasn't like some big deal, you know what I mean?

But, uh, anyways, they're working at this point, they're working on staring into the sun. Right. And we wanted to record, um, with Chaz at Casbah studios. Um, but they wanted us to go into where they were recording staring into the sun because they had established, uh, a relationship with this guy, Rich Andrews, who was running that studio. So, you know, we didn't know enough about recording to say anything about it. We were just like, okay. And that's what we went and did.

We paid for the recording out of our pocket. It took a long time to come out. Probably over two years to come out. Because I think we recorded it in 86 and it came out in 88. So yeah, it was a, it was, uh, I'm not going to lie. I love Pat Dubar and Pat Longree. They, they, they always been good to me, but it was super disappointing and they were having some issues because they were, they had made some deal with giant records and they weren't getting paid.

And, you know, there was a whole, the whole thing going on there that I didn't really understand at the time. But, um, but anyways, so we go into radio Tokyo and we, we record, bonds of friendship, you know, and super green, super naive. Um, knowing what I know now, I would have done it totally different, but there's people like you who really love that record, you know? And, and I, I love the record because it represents a time in my life that was fantastic.

You know, I'm a junior in high school and I'm making an album, you know? And, uh, I, uh, I don't regret it. I wish I knew more because I would have put my foot down and said, no, we're recording with Chaz at Casbah. That's what we're doing.

But that's essentially what happened. We had a record deal. We were asked to go into Radio Tokyo in Venice Beach, and we recorded Mons of Friendship there.

They were expanding themselves as artists, as musicians, you know. And I didn't feel like, I felt like if we'd done it two years earlier, it would have been done quicker. It would have had all the attention I would have expected it to get and so on and so forth. And, you know, the other fact of the matter is that revelation at the same time, it asked us about doing a seven inch and we chose to go with wishing well, because we knew them and revelation wasn't anything at the time.

It was, I think maybe one was out. I don't think two was out. I think maybe revelation one was out or what did they even have a release out by them? I don't, I don't remember when rev rev one came out. Huh? Anyways, uh, so we made a decision to go with wishing well instead of rev and, and, uh, and then we felt like, Whoa, did we make a mistake? Cause we thought these are our local heroes. It's right here in fountain Valley. We're orange County guys.

Um, these guys make t-shirts, uh, in their garage by the thousand, it seems like. And so like, it seemed like everything we needed was right here in our backyard. Why wouldn't we do it? You know? And as I, as I say all this, you know, we were, huge fans of Youth of the Day at that time as well. So being asked by Ray to do a 7-inch with them was super flattering.

to the the legacy that maybe you wouldn't have had if you were just on rev from day one but then again if you were just if you were a rev band like yeah you would have that rub too you know and been along for right

But to us, this all seemed very natural because, like I said, the shows were super diverse. Everything was really diverse in the beginning. It was very... dare I say, innocent, you know, like playing a show with, with, uh, you know, agnostic front and saying, and the brokers on a bill is not, was not unheard of. You know what I mean? And I can't even think of how many times we've played with NBC. You know what I mean? We played with NBC a lot in a lot of different places.

And it's like, you guys played with NBC. Yeah. A lot. I loved it. I loved them.

He was, I think his production company at the time company, um, he was calling himself like Christ craft or something like that. And he, and he did some local shows and he would just find places. And then this particular place was a garden Grove, uh, VFW hall. And it was instead no for an answer. Um, I think hard stance. I forget who all was on there. I don't even remember final conflict was on there or not, but anyways, it was, we were shocked at how many people came out to see us.

We were headlining. I do remember that. Um, they shut down the power while we were, while we were like three songs into our set because the place was just going bananas. Like people stage diving, huge pit, you know, things were just, it wasn't meant that BSW hall was not meant for what was happening, you know? And, uh, so the cops came, the power got shut off and I believe we were playing live and let live.

when they turned the power off and we played, I kept playing drums and everybody sang along as if everything was still plugged in. And it was truly one of my favorite moments in the band. Um, and for what, I mean, it just, it kind of felt like we were all of a sudden everybody's band, like this is, this is our scene. This is ours. Not like in an ownership way, but it's like, it's like everybody was looking to us for answers, you know, like we became what uniform choice was to us.

Like all of a sudden people are looking up to us and being influenced by us and hanging on our every word. You know what I mean?

When I say here, I mean Orange County, LA. Close enough that we could go to shows and buy band shirts. I mean, I remember one year specifically, telling my mom to give me a hundred bucks. I was going to do my back to school shopping at a fender show. That's where I was going to get all my shirts for the year. And I absolutely did. And most of them were wishing well shirts because, um, uniform choice is playing the show, but yeah, I mean, that's what I did. And my mom was cool with it.

She's like a hundred bucks for a year for the shirt. Here you go. You know?

Yeah. So, so, um, anyways, just going back to your question, we, we just, we, we didn't know what to expect we expected everything to be terrible and it wasn't of course there were nights where there was you know half a dozen people at some you know some poorly promoted uh wednesday night show in middle america but there was also great shows where we played with good local bands and i think what helped us too is we were very personable people We didn't mind talking to people.

We were into hardcore, man. We were hardcore kids. And we didn't think we were too cool. We didn't think we were above anybody. We liked all forms of punk and hardcore. I like to think the band really lived by the live and let live, do it for yourself motto. That's truly who we were. Now, we definitely did some vegetarian stands and some Some straight edge stands as the band evolved more into that. But I still think we weren't terrible about shoving it down your throat.

We still accepted people for who they were. And I think when people came out and saw us and, you know, even if it was by accident because they were going to see their friend's band open or whatever, it just played in our favor. And we just kept doing the same thing over and over. Come home, play a couple local shows while we wrote new material, record a record. Hit the road. Sell shirts and records. Be cool to everybody. Come home. Do it again. Does that make sense?

That's something else I probably need to add to that previous notion too. Like there were some heavy hitters that, that came out and supported us and said good things about us and wore shirts at their shows. Roger put us up at his house and let us like run up and down the East coast and come back to his house and have a place to sleep. You know, he called out sick and hung out with us from work many days over. I think we stayed at his house for about two weeks and ran up and down the East coast.

you know? And so for me, that was the best. Um, just absolutely incredible. Um, and then a low light probably would have been, I think we've played in like Wisconsin and some basements and like no one came, but the couple of people that came really dug us. And there were people there. It was like a bar that was like, it's still allowed all ages shows.

And some dude like that played in one of the opening bands was just like, I mean, we're talking, like, the only way I could describe him is just kind of think G.G. Allen light. But the dude, like, was so cool to us and loved us. And I think he was just a punk dude that loved punk and, like us, just accepted everybody for what they were. And so, like, he passed his baseball hat around. It was like, everybody put some money in here.

These guys got to get some gas to go to their next destination, you know? And, you know, he didn't collect a lot of money, of course, but he did it. And then he parlayed that into a ride to wherever he needed to go. Fair enough. I'd say that was a low light, but it's kind of a combination of a low light highlight because it just kind of showed how rad people were.

but yeah he's rad man that guy knows his shit and he's just a fucking rad human being you know it's one of those things right like I think I heard you and Big Frank talk about something like this or touch on it or something there's like some bands have fans that you don't like and so then you end up not liking the band my example is going to be Pennywise like for me, like Pennywise guys, like their fan base is a bunch of like, and listen, this is, I know this is terrible.

It sounds terrible, but it's like a bunch of flat bill, motocross riding, big white sunglass having dudes. Like that was their fan base to me. And it turned me off to the band. I actually think the band's great, but I dislike their fan base so much. And it makes me not want any affiliation with anyone.

And we're like, yeah, man, this sounds a little bit like us and a little bit like bad religion. Like, this is really cool. He's like, you guys think I should sign it? We're like, yeah, pretty fucking cool. You know? And that was that. And the next thing I know, Gavin's doing the iconic Pennywise logo on their album, their first Epitaph album.

And what's your approach for doing a 7-inch after doing an LP?

So we had all these influences, especially East coast, New York hardcore, um, really influenced us. And I think that comes out a little bit in that seven inch too. Um, one of the biggest influences on me personally, um, of, of, you know, like a, a straight edge genre was solid 13 is one of my, that album is one of my favorite albums. Um, I don't think that thing gets the love it deserves. Um, but

I remember being, uh, at the time I lived in Tustin and I remember him and I just being in my room for hours one day, just grinding that song out. Yeah.

even though they sound more, you know, sonically it's more metal. So it's like, what is hardcore and dialing that, dialing that in or trying to dial in what it is. I try to come up with like common things of, it has to be this right. And that's so, that's so hard to do in something so big tent, you know?

And my life would be much different today. And look, I know plenty of people that were straight edge and aren't anymore. And that's all awesome. I really don't care about straight edge in that way. You know what I mean? I'm a 51 year old man. I just don't care about straight edge. And if that sounds bad to someone who's bearing the straight edge cross, I'm sorry, but know that by definition, I'm still straight edge, you know?

So, I guess what I'm saying is that, you know, we were trying to do it in a way that was absolutely serious and at the same time simple and without just being like, you know, taking, say, like a Project X or a Slapshot approach to it lyrically. I think that we felt that strongly, but we didn't want to That's not the way we wanted to present it. We wanted to present it as an option. Um, and, and yet, you know, be serious about it, you know?

We bought our demos at Dead Records, so it was natural for us to make our demos, make a lyric sheet, put some stickers in it, put it in a manila envelope, and take it down there and have them put them in there on consignment. And, you know, He was, yeah, absolutely, I'll do that. And then I think within the very next morning, he calls us and said, hey, I need more demos. I'm out. What? We gave you 20. No, I need more, guys. So then it just was insane.

We were just subbing off demos, like just burning out everybody, dual cassette players, all of our friends, family. We were blowing. I don't even know how many demos we made, to be honest with you, but it felt like thousands. It probably was hundreds, but it felt like thousands. So it started there. We established a relationship with him. He's the one who gives us our first big club show.

He puts us on the, I don't know if he put us on there or he recommended that we put on, but he put us on Bad Brain when they were touring Eye Against Eye. And so it was natural for us to reach out to Frank, who had started Nemesis, to say, hey, Frank, do you have any interest in doing, you know, our seven inch? And I think he was blown away. You know, I think he was like, what? You guys want me to do your seven inch? And we're like, yeah, here's what we need. Can you do it? Yeah, I can do it.

Get in the studio, get it done, and I will get it out within 30 days. And he did exactly what he said he would do. Now, could the artwork have been tightened up a little bit? Have we not rushed it? Probably. but it didn't matter. It looked like an 80s hardcore 7-inch, you know? But that's how it came to be.

Um, just a big, big man, big, scary looking dude. And I brought him home. And I just remember seeing my dad and his girlfriend at the time, just looking at this guy like, oh, what did you bring home? And then Frank, as they're like digesting him, like looking at him and taking it in, he sees the cat. And this different side of Frank comes out and it just disarms everybody immediately. Because when you look at him, you're judging him, right?

That's just human nature, whether we can all pretend that we don't, but we do, right? And, uh, him just being like, Oh yeah. Oh my God. I love cats. And just picking up the cat and petting it, like holding it near his face. And it just let it completely disarmed the room of my house. Like everybody's like, all right, this guy's cool. But anyway, so rad. Yeah.

You know, again, he's walking in my house and, and my, my kids to some degree are used to seeing some characters, right. Just from me being who, you know, their father, I've got some dudes coming around now and again. but him walking in this large human being and just being like a teddy bear of a dude and just being like, so loving and, and like understanding like, Oh, let me just sit down and play a video game with your son. And I'm sure maybe it meant something to him as well.

Like I'm going to play a game with Steve's son. This means like this matters to me. You know what I mean? But I just sat back there and like, Dude, my heart melted. There's no other way to put it. Like, man, Frank, you're awesome.

So I'm not, I'm not about to say that that's what our tour was like because it wasn't, but the shows were much, much better. we were also out in the summer, which is a better time to tour. Other, other good bands are out where we know we're, we're crossing paths with the, the other thing too, is I don't think people realize that not a lot of bands at that point were touring. Like it's just not what people did.

Like they, you get like a national act coming over from say Europe, you know, people like DDH and conflict and stuff like that. But you American hardcore bands, Youth of the Day did it. Seven Seconds did it. We did it. SNFU did it. Eventually, GB did it. And in this particular summer, us, GB, SNFU, Underdog, we're all like crossing paths constantly. We have some shows together. Then we go different ways. We have different people booking tours and whatnot.

And it was just, yeah, again, you know, you're just building. Every time I would tell any kid, I hope it's the same these days that every time you go out, you're making an impact on people. So whether there's three people there or 3000, you know, do what you went there to do and be cool to people and it'll pay off. You know, I'm not, we, we didn't have intentions of getting big. That was never our motivation ever.

Um, but we, we got very big, um, especially locally and, and, to a large degree nationally as well. Um, and it just came from, from hard work touring, being cool and playing any show that came our way. We, we didn't care who we played with. We, like I said, I mean, I love SNFU, so no problem there. Um, but I mean, we played with the libido boys. We played with, um, pussy galore, you know, like we did some cool shit, man. Shit. I'm really glad we did that. was a little off the beaten path.

And that was kind of our legacy, too. Like you said, we didn't go Revelation. We went Wishing Well. We went Nemesis. We went Epitaph. We were on our own trip.

And long sleeves, short sleeves, tank tops. Like, we did it up, man. Merch was a big deal, and we learned that from Witching World. And we did it shamelessly. So, what Brett noticed was a couple of things. The first thing he noticed is how much merch how much more merch we were selling than Bad Religion. If I was a betting man, I'd say we were selling shirts 10 to 1 to them that night. The night that this all goes back to.

Then we get out and we play, and I think we were right before them on this show. So, you know, it was probably like a five-band bill, and, you know, we were fourth and they were fifth. And, you know, the headliners. And we were... a force to be reckoned with at that time. And I'm not saying that like to toot my own horn.

You know, you can look at videos of instead playing the country club in the late 80s and see like there were a lot of people and there were a lot of people that were really into it. And we were really into it, you know. So, you know, he he takes this all in. Right. Doesn't say anything to us at the show. Hey, man, what's up? Cool. Nice to meet you. Whatever. Right. Because we didn't really know each other.

So the next day or the following Monday, I think it was a Saturday night, I think Monday, he calls Kevin's house. Somehow he gets, I think he gets hold of Big Frank. Big Frank gives him Kevin's number and he calls Kevin and says, hey, would you guys entertain doing a record on Epitaph Records? And Kevin's like, uh, I never really thought about it, you know? We only have a couple of songs written, you know? And he's like, That's cool. You know, like, do you have something you can share with me?

And he's like, we only really have a boombox version from rehearsals when we, you know, just started putting songs together. He's like, I can figure it out from there. He's like, all right, let me talk to the guys. And so he, you know, you know, this is a different era. This is landlines con, you know, leaving voicemails on, you know, on cassette recorded voicemails in people's homes. They call me back. It's important. Right. And, uh, You know, he tells us the story I just told you.

And it's like, okay, well, let's go down there. And so we meet him at West Beach, which is where Epitaph Records was run out of at the time. And he basically listens to the song, nods his head and goes, all right, love it, man. You guys are fucking fast, man. You guys are really fucking fast. And he's like, let's do a record. And we're like, shit. okay. And he's like, uh, about, uh, he's looking at, he's like literally looking at a calendar on the wall and there's a bunch of stuff written on it.

And he's like, uh, how about two weeks from today? And we're like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. So we don't have, we've got those, those are the two or three songs we have. Like, that's all we've got. Right. And, uh, he's like, okay, six weeks. And, you know, again, as much as we've done, we're still, semi intimidated by him and he's being super cool and super gracious, but we're still just like, we don't have the internal fortitude to say, Hey, you know what?

Like six weeks probably isn't enough for us to write a full album. We just go, okay. And, and we do it, you know? And I think that comes out a little bit in the record. And I, I put some shit online late recently. Um, I, I forget. Oh, um, I, I found some old negatives of, of, uh, a photo shoot that was taken for what we believe of us in our band and around our band. And, um, somebody, Oh, I know what it was. Uh, eight, five, six. What's his name? Sonny.

He, he had posted, he had redone an old video that Joe Nelson had taken of us. And, uh, it was, it came out really good. It was a thank you show. And he was, he basically wrote an article, you know, like a short paragraph on when he posted it saying, Hey, I really feel like instead doesn't get to do their deserves. you know, blah, blah, blah, and whatever, right?

And so I kind of, what I did is I did a copy and paste and reposted it on my Facebook page and just said, you know, I don't really think about this much until somebody says something. But since he brought it up, you know, I wish we had, one thing I wish we had done is taken more time and really refined what we believe. I think we would have made an incredible record had we spent a little bit more time on it. And, oh man, I got a lot of backlash for that. Like, what are you talking about?

Greatest record ever. Because there's, there's, there's like you, you love the seven inch, right? And yeah, but there's, there's like three camps. There's the bonds of friendship people. There's the, what we believe people. And, and there's the, the we'll make the difference people. And like, they'll all claim that this one's the greatest because, right.

So anyways, it's just, um, I took some backlash on it, but I will tell you flatly, just like I was explaining, you know, in that long-winded story, that I wish we had taken some more time. And I think we would have made a really, really incredible record. I think we shortchanged ourselves on some lyrics. Maybe some songs were a little longer than they should have been, trying to fill time, for example. But nonetheless, it is what it is. That's our legacy, you know?

And this is late in the instead career, but in your life, you're still really young, obviously. Yeah. You know, I

He was newly in love and getting married and it affected his output. And he wasn't as motivated about it instead as he was. Or hardcore for that matter.

um and then to your point like there was a lot of schism in the scene you know like youth of the day and slap shot had a schism you know there was there's just all these beats and that's one i can name in particular where we just didn't choose sides man both bands were friends of ours and they were quite different approaches to to straight edge for example you know and uh we weren't choosing sides man it wasn't our it wasn't our beef and I think both sides struggled with that for a minute.

And then they were just like, ah, they're the fucking instead guys, you know, like these guys are just cool dudes, you know, they're of course they're not taking a side. There's no side that needs to be taken. So, um, yeah, you know, like, and we knew like, um, bands like strife were coming up and, you know, judge and that heavier, like chug chug straight edge was coming.

Let's go out and we're not hating each other. Everything's cool. You know, and that's essentially what happened. We, we had booked a tour. Um, one thing I'll give Epitaph credit for to Brett specifically is that like, they wanted us to go to Europe and support the record, you know, like you need to go to Europe. And so we were in the process of booking that tour and, and, uh, Desert Storm broke out. And then it's like, okay, well we can't fly. It was recommended in the beginning of that.

If I, if my memory serves me correct, not to fly. Right. Especially with a bunch of electronics and blah, blah, blah. So we had already like taken time off work and plan things around school and, and whatnot. And so we just parlayed that into like a late spring tour in 91. And then we got home and did a couple of rehearsals and, And we're like, Hey, you know what, man, this is just kind of what I said to you. We, we, we recognize that we weren't a hundred percent committed.

And when I say that it really wasn't all of us, but we, we looked at a, we were truly a collective. We all had equal say in what was happening. Everybody's opinion mattered in what we did.

And there were some disagreements, disagreements on things, you know, as far as like what we decided to do, whether it was, shirt colorways or how many shirts to make or you know what record label to go with we didn't always 100% agree on that but there was always a good conversation a healthy conversation about things and we just all basically came to the conclusion that we were done as a band we were done and so then we made the conscious decision to say okay we can go out big and we can do

some huge show and, and like bring in some big bangers, you know, seven seconds, real biscuits, whoever, you know, I don't even remember who we were thinking about at the time, but then we were like, you know what? We don't, we don't need that. Like, let's just go and play someplace too small for us and, and not tell anybody. Don't tell your friends, don't tell anybody. And so we didn't, we, we booked the show at Spanky's. which was way too small for us at that point in our career.

And we got on stage and announced it was our last show. And I literally remember seeing people weeping in the audience. And I remember being choked up, listening to Kevin talk. You know, like, wow, this is it, man. But anyways.

It was all good, man. But I was... I... It's weird, you know? Like, it was so surreal. It was like I was watching instead from the outside play. Because I took so much time as I was playing drums to just look around at the faces and see, like... It was a weird range of emotions I was seeing from people. People super psyched and super into it. to people super sad and crying and literally shaking their head at me like, why? Why are you guys doing this?

So realizing this is the last time I'm going to be playing with these guys. So it's just this weird wide range of emotions. Every song mattered. Everybody sang along to every song. We had to keep trying to back people up off the stage, which was fine. But It was truly a high point of my life.

Like I told you at the beginning of the podcast, you know, um, and, um, he had got ahold of me and I think the way he sold it to me, cause I feel I might be wrong because he's hit me up so many times since I'm an 18 to do different things. Um, Mike, Mike's notorious and relentless and I love him. Um, he, um, he basically said, Hey, me and Isaac have these couple of songs. Would you, we don't know anybody that's your age, our age, that's straight edge anymore.

You know, and it's important to us that this is a straight edge band. And so he, I don't know if he, I don't think he had anything to show me. He didn't because I recorded the demo. And, uh, but, but they did have two songs and they were good. And, uh, I said, all right, cool. You know what? let's do it. You know, like we'll do a seven inch or whatever. The problem with me is that I'm all in, like I work like that.

I don't know any other way to be in a band than to just be like, Oh, we're doing this. Let's go. And so quickly what happened was I, I hesitate to say this, but I almost took over, you know, like I was like, Oh, you know, I started writing all kinds of... I got motivated. I started writing all kinds of songs. I could play guitar well enough to write songs, and so I would bring them riffs and be like, what do you think of this? And they're like, fuck, this is awesome, you know?

And so I basically wrote... I think of the first album, I wrote over half of it. The second album... What was that album called? I

You know, I, I was like, let's go, let's go, let's go. You know, like, and I think the thing they always make fun of me for, as I said, if you want to act like amateurs, you'll get treated like amateurs, you know? And, uh, you know, it, it, it sounds shitty, but I said it in a, in a funny way. Um, you know, it's not what you say, how you say it. Right. And I delivered that message, uh, in a serious but kind way. And I just kind of viewed them as lovable dipshits to some degree.

And I mean, absolutely, I've got nothing but love in my heart for those guys. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. But we're just in different places in the way we work in band.

And so it was like, we had wrote another three songs after, before Instead broke up, right? And so we were talking about, okay, let's do it in reverse chronological order. You know, all these different ideas everywhere. And it was like, yeah, no, if you guys can find that old cassette of the three songs you wrote, why don't you guys learn it and go into the studio with Paul Minor and we'll put those on there unfinished instead.

That'll even give it more merit, more credibility, you know, make it a little more interesting to people. And so, you know, then we were just like, all right, let's do it. And so we started working on this discography, pulling together old photos, and you start getting very nostalgic about everything, right? Wow, man, we got along so good. We parted on good terms. There's absolutely zero animosity between us. There was no malice at the time. And we're in there, and we're working, and...

Everybody, like Paul Minor and him, are just like, this is fucking rad, guys. You guys should do some shows. And we're like, get the fuck out of here. We're not doing shows. And, you know, this is funny. In 04, right, 16 years ago, we're like, we're old men. No way. You know? But eventually, I don't remember who said what, but this is what was thrown out there. if CBGBs will book an instead show, then we will do reunion shows. And that was that.

CBGBs was like, yeah, we would love to do an instead show. And then we were kind of like, we're men of our words. We're like, okay, I guess we're doing reunion show on the East Coast. And so we didn't think anything of it. We started getting ready for it. And man, it was just like getting on a bike, you know, like you just don't forget. And all those, uh, you know, using an athletic term, all those twitch muscles start just firing where they're supposed to transitions.

It was like, we never quit playing like quickly. And that, so that's mind blowing. They're like, wow, we can do this. And so we booked those, those, uh, the three shows. It was Jersey, CBGB. And, uh, I think it was a Rhode Island show and they were all great. They were super fun.

Like we got a chance. We always felt, it necessary to do what was done to us, you know? And, uh, and then there started to be some, I don't want to say backlash, but I don't know what to call it, but people were bummed out that we weren't doing California shows. Like, Hey man, what the fuck? You guys are a California band. What do you mean? You're not doing California shows. And we were just, we were just like, nobody gives a shit about us. Like we're long gone. Like we're an afterthought.

And, uh, and then golden boy comes calling. And they're like, hey, you know, blood's in the water. Let's do this. And we're like, shit, man. So then we're like, then we get the big idea. Hey, let's do something rad. Let's get Youth of the Day. Let's do Youth of the Day, seven seconds instead. And let's do the Glass House in Pomona. And so Seven Seconds has a conflict. They can't do it when we want to do it.

And Youth of the Day, wants to do something even bigger and crazier than what we're interested in doing and it becomes clear to us that it's about more than just putting on a cool reunion show I think that you probably know because you seem well connected and well informed that we weren't doing it for money we absolutely were not doing it for money and no disrespect to bands who do do it for money because everybody should get paid people don't realize how much money you spend being in a band

with rehearsals and Vans breaking down and equipment getting stolen and all that stuff, right? So I have no qualms with people getting paid. But for us, we just wanted to do like a $10 show and we wanted it to be authentic. It was really important to us that it was as we remembered it. And in dealing with youth of today, it was clear that they wanted to do, you know, turn it into more of a money thing. And so we were like, okay, never mind.

And then it just turned out where we decided it was better to do back-to-back nights at the Showcase Theater. And I'm really glad we decided to do it that way and put some young and up-and-comers on the bill and had a great time.

Um, and, and I, and that's, I'm like, I don't want to make it seem like I'm totally happy with what I did instead, and I have no regret. But I think there's a weird stigma attached to it to some degree. And maybe I'm wrong, but it's what it feels like sometimes.

You're still friends. And then we can move on to the last thing here to talk about, which is Alligators, which is basically Instead plus Roger from Magnostic Front on vocals.

Okay. There you go. Yeah, so... How, how do you put this band together and how do you feel about this first, uh, two, seven inches?

And, and then, uh, you know, bear was brought into the fold to play guitar on it, but basically it was me, you and Roger are making a record finally. And I'm like, okay. And so essentially what happened is we went to a rehearsal studio and he taught me songs. And as he was teaching me the songs, Paul Miner was setting up some stuff on his laptop in a rehearsal studio and recorded the first seven inch.

Um, as I was learning them and the thought process there was we wanted to capture it as captured as I was learning it. So it wasn't overtight. So it sounded like old, like legitimate old school hardcore that wasn't overproduced or overly tight. Not that there's anything wrong with those things. It's just not what we wanted, you know? Um, so that's how the first seven inch came to be. And essentially it got repeated on the second seven inch, but we went to Paul's studio and did it there.

I learned songs in the studio there. They hit record. We captured it. And that was it, man. And, and rich is really the brainchild behind 98% of it. He lyrics, lyrics, he's telling Roger, here's your lyrics. And, and he literally told Roger, I don't want any of this new bullshit agnostic front voice thing you're doing. I want victim in pain, Roger. That's who's singing this. And if he started to drift off that path, man, Rich was on him.

No, no, no. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's just the way it was approached. Yeah, I loved it. It's a good time. And we're getting ready to do some more stuff, actually. It's strange that you... or coincidental that you contacted me about doing this podcast and asked me about this because in a couple weeks I'll be learning some new Alligator songs.

And like, these are, these are dudes that they're great in front of 5,000 or that one 50, you know, it's just, it's amazing. So, uh, but yeah, I guess I'm just a fan and, uh, we should say you can still get all that alligator stuff came out in the decision. Um, I think you can order it. They're still B nine, put it out in 2012. That's just a re-release I believe.

And we chose the East Coast because you can cover so much ground there and play so many... big cities right because they're all close enough in proximity right so somehow we got hooked up with Vision and it was literally Kevin calling Dave and like and Dave being Dave was like alright man yeah cool man let's do this like he was gung ho and my favorite instead tour for sure is that spring tour with Vision and we became great friends it's tragic you know that Dave passed away um but I still keep

up with those guys, you know, on, on Facebook and not even superficially, like we message each other every now and again, you know? And, uh, it's cool, man. Like there's, there's just been some bonds forged over, you know, three decades plus that have, you know, to this day are still bearing fruit and it blows my mind. But, um, Yeah, so that's the only thing, just going back to specifically what you asked, that would be the only thing I would question Big Frank on.

I don't want to question Big Frank on anything, to be honest with you, but I think he might have been a little, I think he said Kane from Cargo is the one who put him in touch with him, but I think we actually did. Go

But I think he basically said, no, it was always intended to be a side project. And I think that was true for everybody but Frank. Frank really wanted to do an album. He wanted to... do more with it than, than like I was, I was so busy with instead, I barely had time to do it. But as I say this, I love Cary nation. I absolutely loved it. Um, again, more like where I was coming from personally, a little darker, a little angrier, you know?

Um, so that it kind of stroked that bone for me, you know what I mean? And, uh, it's unfortunate that I think that, that, uh, Shocking, Dan Olahony's ego got in his way. And I'm not afraid to say that. Dan's got a big ego. He knows he's got a big ego. And I think that really was the end of the band, his ego. Now, you could argue that maybe Frank played into that too. We're talking about, but you're talking about guys that are coming from very successful bands playing in a band together, right?

But when those two bohemians almost come to blows on a stage at Spanky's Cafe, I'm like, I'm done. I don't need this. Like, I have a good time playing music. This is not fun. Breaking you two idiots up. Over what? You know, stupid shit. So anyways, it's a shame. Cary Nation had a bunch of good songs written that I honestly felt when I left the band, because I left on the spot that night. I just assumed they'd pick up another drummer and carry on, but they didn't.

And I think that's a shame because I think there was roughly 10 to 12 other songs written that were really, really good, better than the 7-inch probably.