86. Mike Hartsfield (Outspoken/New Age Records)

Also, if you want to go the extra mile, you can go to patron.com slash 185 miles South and become a monthly patron. Uh, the patrons, I'm trying my best to do a bonus podcast for basically every long form interview. So, uh, Yeah, for like this Mike Hartsfield interview, we got together. There's a few of us, and we talk about the podcast, and then also we go through like a playlist that I build out based on the interview. So check that out. Super cool. $1 gets you behind the paywall.

If you can do more, do more. If not, no big deal, man. Appreciate it. Like all the support. And anyway, let's get on with the pod.

We can do a follow-up, whatever. Yeah, but this is the best I can do for the first run, so let's get it started. So, Mike, to hit you with a question off the bat. Yeah. Okay. If you had to fight a prime Dick Murdoch in a Texas death row match or never listen to Minor Threat again, what are you choosing?

Friends of mine that I met just through kind of being involved in music and a lot of the guys involved in better music were kind of outcasts like the punk guys the metal guys like everyone was kind of on their own yet banded together in a weird way so I came from the metal scene so probably the first year or two of high school I was you know going to concerts and stuff and then In like probably late 85, I was introduced to my friend Paul, who ended up being in Freewill, who really taught me how

to play guitar slash bass, how to formulate songs, how to kind of Like, cause really I, I bought guitars and basses all my life and like, Oh, I want to get this guitar and I'd buy a guitar. And I didn't know how to make a bar chord. I didn't know how to make any sort of sensible sounds. Uh, so like halfway through high school, he was in a band, he was doing bands, he was constantly playing and like would have practice of him playing guitar. And I was like, Oh, okay.

And he'd be like, Hey, we're going to jam. We're going to do whatever. So he, I started jamming with him and figured out like, oh, this part goes four times. This part goes four times. Great. You've got a song for the most part.

So in high school, I went from being a metal kid pretty much into going to a lot of the crossover shows that were like, you know, Dag Nasty and Nuclear Assault and Senders or like those weird kind of builds where when the scene, you know, was blended a lot more there would be those mixed kind of builds so it was easy for me to transition from being a metal guy into hardcore punk because you would see those those builds without even trying um but then paul with paul i started going to shows in

oxnard and learning about like oh this is orange county and fountain valley and wishing well oh that's oxnard mystic you know, and venues up there and stuff. So that's really where I kind of got into hardcore and punk was like halfway through high school and due to having good slash awesome friends.

But it was just great. And I just thought of like, wow, this place isn't that far from my house. Like Oxnard, I was living up in Santa Clarita at the time. You know, I didn't drive, but luckily I had a couple of friends that did.

But I just remember going like, like really realizing punk and hardcore, there was such a closer connection to, the people who supported it, you know, like I had come from, uh, going to arena rock shows, you know, and, and, and going to like the country club and the troubadour and the Roxy and the whiskey and a lot of those places being metal bands and like 82, 83, 84, you know, like rat before they had a record and Motley crew and like a lot of those early bands, but there was always like that

rock and roll kind of, uh, sort of attitude. when you would go to hardcore shows, and it was like, oh, that guy just drove his car here, and he got out and just walked through the show, and that was band playing. And it was just like a more down-to-earth, more reasonable, more easier to grasp and understand kind of situation.

Yeah, we got together in late 87, and I think we recorded the demo in the first couple months of 88. Okay.

They were doing a lot of stuff. And I was like, what is it? What does it take to start a label? You know? And, I had just read in a lot of the music magazines around L.A. There were deals, you know, ads in magazines where you could look and it would say, oh, get 500 records pressed, get 1,000 LPs pressed. And I just remember going, well, this ad is to people just picking up the magazine. Like, this isn't an industry sort of advertisement. It's just to regular people.

And so I just remember calling and saying, asking a million dumb questions and just figuring out like, well, if this is what it costs, like I'll just work really hard, raise the money and press the record. And that's all it was. I had no initial thoughts of doing a second record or like I hadn't even, God, I don't even really remember thinking that Free Will should do a record on New Age. I just don't remember putting that together, but we got the offer from wishing well, like mid 88.

It was, it was really fast. So, uh, if that had come in 89 or 90, I think naturally we could have put out the demo or recorded something new for free will to be on new age. But, uh, that wishing well deal came and, and, uh, Took us to a world we thought was going to be the answer to all our problems, but it wasn't.

by the time we were ready to do a second pressing uh maybe it was redoing dumb kids jobs like mine maybe they should have just made me eat those records but um uh the um They just offered up. They were a broker anyway. I don't actually know where they press the records, but they suggested I go to another local pressing plant, and we just went on from there. So the second pressings and additional pressings after that happened at a different spot.

The most memorable show we probably played was, we played Gilman with Uniform Choice and Instead. And that was like, we were riding high. We were pretty stoked. And then we actually headlined a show at the Country Club, which was like a weird booking at the end of the Country Club. Lots of promoters were just getting in there and just trying to do anything to keep shows happening there. And then it closed shortly after. But those are probably the two biggest shows. And then...

Our record actually, well, long story short, I quit Free Will to join Against the Wall. Or I actually had already started playing with Against the Wall. But with Free Will, we kind of started having some creative differences. And I thought we were kind of becoming a little too melodic. Maybe not too melodic, but maybe just not hardcore enough, which was really stupid for me at that time. I think I should have just... Probably thought it out a little better and stuck around.

But I really wanted to be in a hardcore, hardcore band. So I made the decisions to make that happen. But I did that before the Free Will record was supposed to come out. Like it was, you know, in the process, we've gotten test pressings. And then from what we heard, the two pats involved in Wishing Well got in a fight and dissolved the label.

so we were each sitting on one test pressing of the free will record waiting for this thing to come out and it doesn't come out and the label folds so that's like halfway into 89 probably and it's just we were so bummed because In high school, we would go spray painting escape places. We would go to Fountain Valley, Wishing Well Records, and we just had these stars in our eyes about, wow, Wishing Well Records, Youth of the Day, Beautiful Choice, and Blast, and all these Wishing Well things.

We were just like, oh my God, we were so in awe. And to end up getting on Wishing Well, and then to record the record, and then get the tap pressings, and just be like, My gosh, it's really going to happen. And then the two guys involved in the label get in a fight and dissolve the label.

We were screwed. We were big time screwed.

They already had most of the material already written. I didn't write anything on Identify Me. So I really came in. And that's the first band I'd ever played guitar in. So Joe, the guitar player that wrote all that stuff and taught me how to play guitar, was the guy like, I was emulating his style and his sort of flair and technique when I learned how to play those songs.

And the process of getting into that band when those guys were really excited about music still and friends and really to gather on a lot of things to where it started fragmenting to where they started being against each other. And we were going into the recording process and everyone did their part. We recorded and the bass player quit during recording or right after. And he was replaced.

And the powers that be in the band replaced the original bass player's bass track with Randy, the new bass player's bass track. And so it kind of was like, that guy was in the band for a couple of years. Here comes his record. He finally does it. He's had enough of certain personalities in the band. He's out. Well, shit, you know, okay. God, it kind of sucks. Like, I'm the newest guy in the band besides Randy, who had just joined. And then the guitar player has had enough, Joe.

He quit, and they just cut his guitar tracks out. So the record is my guitar track and Joe's, which was a really dick move. I quit the band before the record even came out, and it wasn't a healthy sort of situation. But I get a lot of credit for that record, which... A, I didn't write any of the songs, and B, it would have sounded so much better with the guy who wrote those guitar tracks having his guitar tracks on the record.

So it was one of those weird situations when you join a band that's not yours from the ground up. You are at a disadvantage to making decisions and calling shots or whatever. So I remember when the record, and the record was originally supposed to be on New Age. And we had advertised the record coming out on New Age. And I was, the decision was brought to my attention after it was already made. Oh, hey, we're going to do this on Nemesis.

And it's like, no. I was like, no, we've already advertised. This is good to go. We're doing this on New Age. No, no, we're not going to do it. You know, Frank's going to help us get shows and that's a better move. And so we're doing it. And it was like, okay, I'm the guy doing the label, but like, you know, we had made a decision to do this, but what was I going to do? You know, not play on the seven. It's like, I had nowhere to really go.

Um, and Nemesis ended up getting us one of the greatest shows I've ever played. So, uh, it was, I was sour, but, um, uh, I got over it and, uh, Since the band broke up and everything in the early 90s, I've tried numerous times to put the record out. And it's just... It's great. It's awesome. Sounds good. I start working on stuff. There's arguments. There's just weirdness. And last I heard, there was supposed to be some discography somewhere. And I didn't really know much about it.

And it's been... seven or eight years since that was a project. And I, I just figured that stuff is probably on YouTube or wherever, but I've got a master from the vinyl. I took it into Paul Miner's studio. He took the seven inch and like boosted the levels and cut out all the needle sounds and made it sound really good because there was a time, uh, that was gonna, that was gonna come out. So, uh, Yeah, I think that 70s is probably just for the better.

It's rare, and if you dig for it, you can find it.

So, uh, he had gotten us on there and I've made probably half a dozen attempts to contact flip side and associates to find out where that video is. Cause I'm like, if somebody can get that video and edit it together, I'll recently played, I think too. Um, But if somebody could get that video and edit it together, that would just be phenomenal. It was a multi-camera Flipside video shoot that they did.

And I had heard, I think the word I got back was that Flipside had a storage unit that was either burglarized or somebody didn't pay rent on it. So I'm sure all the Flipside archives were just auctioned off or dragged into a dumpster or something. So yeah. Uh, I've never seen video of that show, but we find releases of stuff before. So I know it was like a real project that we're working on.

So when Outspoken formed, I knew John Coyle through shows and things. And he and I started talking about doing something new. And he was like, hey, I got this drummer. I already started working with, we've got like basically a demo. And I'm like, well, I know this guy named Dan Adair, who's my buddy who plays bass and he's a great guy. And so it was two and two. And so that we just put out spoken together as easy as that.

And so when we recorded the demo in early 90s, the original tape we took home from the studio actually has a version of survival on the end of it, just because it had already been written. And we just went through it in the studio and recorded it live. Just, oh, let's just get it down just so we have it on this tape. And it's recorded in a studio. So there was no additional tracking or anything done. It was just raw sound. So both were recorded in 1990.

So I would say a good couple months between. Okay.

So after the seven came out in 90, uh, we did a trip to Arizona and back. And then we went up to, uh, do Seattle and Olympia, if I'm not mistaken, and Portland and Gilman, and then came home. So, and that was in, that was in a Ford Escort.

But, uh, when we played Olympia, we played a basement for just the local hardcore kids, you know? So we were getting out there, but the shows were tons of exposure. The Phoenix show was bigger, but that was completely insane because, uh, we'd gotten the show through friends in Arizona. Uh, we played with that bank counterpunch that, uh, was on the new age seven inch comp a long time ago. Uh, they got us the show. So we're like, okay, great.

You know, we're playing Phoenix with guys we know, and this will be great. And we got out there and the entire club was run by Nazis. And we were just like, wait a minute. It was like, it was like in a movie where you're like, wait, what's going on here?

And we're like, has got a swastika tattoo like what and like we were so innocent to the world I think at the time we were just like wait the security are all Nazis like what's going on here and there's hardcore kids and there's metal guys and we're like it just was it just didn't add up and so as as Coyle was known to do which I admire him still So it was day four. We played the song Blind Leading the Blind, which is about, which is of course against racism.

And he stood on stage and said, the song's called Blind Leading the Blind and it goes out to all you Nazi motherfuckers. And I don't think we knew or maybe, but I don't think we really realized that like, that's the security, that's who's running the club. And before we even struck a nose, there was like 14 guys on stage, like ready to kill us. And it was just, what the fuck's going on? And John never backed down in situations like that.

It was, I just remember him kind of laughing and the security that were Nazis got between us and the crowd that were Nazis and kept the crowd off of us.

And we just, not figure out what was going on and so we played the song we finished the set and we were kind of packing up and we started talking to the security and they're like yeah we're nazis but our job is security and we've got to keep this place secure so we can't have fights and it was like So you kept your Nazi reference from beating up the guys who talked bad about the Nazis because you're security guards and you take pride in your job. And it was the strangest shit.

And the security guys actually snuck us out the back door because they heard somebody's got a gun or something. And I just remember just being in shock of like, Wait, the Nazis saved us from the Nazis who wanted to kill us because we got a song against racism. And John had called the guys motherfuckers. And we just scooted away in our Ford Escort back to Orange County. It was just the weirdest thing. And, like, guys of, like, SF bolts.

And it looked like they did them in a garage somewhere before the show. And just, like, just the wildest, wildest west. sort of

So we hit with the demo and the seven inch quickly after. So we really had a full set. We could play later on a bill if we needed to do 25 minutes or more, not just like a four song opener.

He and Skip became really close. So the three of us would talk constantly. And Skip came out here for a visit. I went back there for a visit. So early on, it was just a lot of that camaraderie and things were just easy to do. I thought Turning Point was such a great band. I'm like, they're going to let me put out this LP. Okay. I'm not going to talk them out of it.

And I just remember Mike Madrid from Against the Wall going, dude, you better put that thing out. And I was like, huh, okay. And I just remember being like, that being the final deciding factor in, okay, I'll put it out. And the Sevens did really good. And I think they had some aspirations for being like, They thought the 7-inch was a launching point, and they were going to do some huge shit. And I just remember they started having lineup issues, and they ended up just kind of sputtering out.

But yeah, what a great band to come out of Florida and really put Florida on the map in a lot of

And so it was just being at the right place at the right time, I guess, because all of those bands were doing great on their own, uh, and full of energy ready to go and it was i think up front may i think the daybreak seven inch was already out for up front if not it was close to it so that's 90 into 91 and then meeting all those new jersey guys was like this is the next couple releases um you know new age eight nine and ten if i'm not mistaken are those three bands so uh Yeah, and Mount Peace

ended up being on the 7-inch comp, up front being race number 6. So yeah, that was like that pocket of just boom, boom, boom, those three bands right in a row.

And like, like a lot of like those bands were doing their first studio things also and there's just such a time like that time in the late 80s into the 90s of like the technology of recording was very I mean I don't want to say archaic but it was so simple yet complicated as opposed to what is just so easily turned around today with digital

And again, I didn't like doing both bands playing on the same bill because it was just kind of distracting in a way. I mean, I know it happened a few times, but I really wanted each to kind of be on their own. And with Drift Again, I mean, Outspoken was easy. Like we were just moving forward, moving on, writing, recording, doing things. And Drift Again was a demo.

And then by the time we started writing Seven and stuff, we kind of changed And, you know, we did this song on the New Age comp, that song Drag, and that was like our first studio experience outside of the garage. And we were like, oh, okay, this is kind of a cool style we're kind of going for. And we recorded that 7-inch.

And the 7-inch probably for all intents and purposes should be on New Age, but I think it was Mikey and maybe a collective idea that oh, if it's on New Age, it's kind of just going to be taken as a hardcore record. And maybe it's going to get lumped in and overlooked. And I was like, well, I don't think so, but, you know, whatever. I'm up for whatever everyone's up for.

And so we started another label, Dennis and I, that was called Network Sound, that was like, oh, this is going to be the place for things that aren't just hardcore or aren't straight edge or aren't this or that to where... maybe things here will kind of sit on their own which kind of sucked because nobody knew what the hell a network sound was and instead of it getting momentum from new age it kind of was sidelined in a weird way like oh it's not going through all the same processes it's it's

suffering so uh i don't know the the answer to the question of were guys been outspoken bummed out uh I think there was a little bit from certain people, but nothing ever spoke and nothing ever got in the way. But Drift Again also didn't have really high hopes, I don't think. I mean, we recorded that 7-inch and then we played those songs as much as humanly possible to where, okay, we've got to write some new stuff.

And it was kind of funny because I remember all of us getting along perfectly, but literally we were writing songs and whoever wrote the song, two people liked that song. And whoever else wrote the other stuff, two people liked that song. And I just remember a practice where we were just, there were two sides to the style we were writing. And one was kind of sticking with where we were.

And the other one was kind of like a little more rock at the time, a little more 90s, a little more, uh i don't want to say grunge but a little more freestyle rock maybe and it was just kind of a shoulder shrug and it's like a okay we'll talk to you guys later and and it just it just dissolved at that point there was no we're literally like we're breaking up there was no fight there was no nothing i don't even know if we played a last show i think we were just kind of done

And so, uh, I just remember writing going, yeah, let's, let's do something. And I think there were phone calls after that. And then before you know it, they were in the studio recording the first seven. And they had had a different singer before Dave. So, uh, the original shows that I went to, they were playing, they still have their, their singer before Dave. So, um, Right before the 7-inch, I think Dave had come in, and that was the first 7-inch. They recorded up in Simi Valley.

At the studio we started using, we should have stayed away from. It was fucking terrible. But everyone started going there. It was affordable, and that's kind of all it took at the time.

The guy who put out the record thinks, oh, you should be playing the record songs, because that's where my head's at. And I'm thinking, the crowd wants to hear these songs, I can only imagine. Yet, they were doing their own thing that was going further with people than my thought process was.

They didn't sit and dwell on things. And everything's very live, very raw. And Life Love Regret is kind of like that embodied altogether. And I remember hearing it for the first time, sitting in my car, and Rob brought me a cassette that I still have. And I just sat going, oh, this is the next thing. Like, you guys were going through these processes with the previous records to get to this point. Like, it's not going to be Ritual plus 10. It's Ritual times 1,000 and Weiss Ritual off the map.

And so I just remember being shocked. And in addition to that, is the recording budget for Life Love Regret was $1,000. And I remember speaking to Rob saying, hey, we're going to need money for recording. And I was like, well, how much do you think it's going to be? And he's like, I think it's, we sat with the engineer, we kind of went over time, and it looks like it's going to be about $1,000. So I had sent him a check for $1,000. And when he brought me the cassette, he brought me $150 back.

And I was thinking, like, why are you giving me $150? And he was like, oh, the record only costs $850 to record.

We were doing distribution together and all the outspoken stuff together. And we made a fatal mistake with the recording. And when we recorded A Light in the Dark, we went to the same place that we had done the main season 7-inch and the first You Won't Be Back, a broken 7-inch. The first Strife 7-inch on New Age was recorded there. And I don't have a great excuse besides we thought we would be saving money, I guess. But we recorded A Light in the Dark at the studio.

And anybody who's heard the first initial mixes will concur that it's less than perfect. So we wrote... and recorded the 12-inch. And we were pretty, you know, hearing the rough mixes, we were like, oh, yeah, sounds good. It's going to sound great once it's mixed. And we actually went to a studio out in Camarillo that was owned by the bass player from Rat. A guy named Juan Krausier had a studio in his house. I'm guessing that's probably where they did Rat pre-production.

Or maybe even recorded Rat. Who knows? But We went there. He was not there, unfortunately. But the guys we had recorded the record with had went to this place to mix. And through the big speakers and everything, we were like, okay, God, this sounds great. And once it was mixed, we got task crafting. We were like, everything sounds just fucking terrible. Like, it sounds flat. Everything just sounded horrible. And we were bummed. We were just too far along in the process.

So, the LP came out and recording wise, we just had to grin and bear it. You know, like we just kind of like, Oh yeah, the recording. Yeah, it's not so good. And we were happy to have the songs out because now we can play the songs and people knew it, but it was a running joke for, why didn't you guys record where you recorded the cassette single?

Or why didn't you record it West beach or, you know, the studio that the, that the Epitaph guys had and there were other studios that were doing good work and we just made a horrible move and ended up with what we ended up with and you know subsequent mixes afterwards or mixes that came after the fact definitely shined a little more light on it like the discography on Indecision has that better mix so it was saved, but it went down in our personal histories as a big mistake with recording.

But it was really big shows. And, like, we were playing with Earth Cry System up front. And, like, a lot of the New Age fans at Endpoint, Four Walls Falling. Like, they were just really great shows to be a part of. which really boosted our level out here also because we'd come home and we'd play with Amstead or whoever. And we were really running hard, 92 into 93, playing constantly.

And we were self-sabotaging in a lot of ways because not only was four guys driving across country. I mean, the first time we tried to do a show cross country and have John fly in early was the last time we did this. We tried to do a show in Louisville and we left and got to Louisville to find out the show had canceled. Back then, 94, there was no way to tell us, hey, guys, don't drive all the way to Kentucky because the show is canceled.

So we got all the way to Louisville to get the, oh, hey, the show canceled yesterday or this morning or whenever or two days ago. But so we just drove all the way there. We took showers, ate dinner, and started driving again. So, uh, yeah, if we had all flown out, that would have been great. But also at the same time too, is I was printing all the t-shirts and we were so DIY that we would start printing a day or two before we're supposed to leave.

And we'd be printing shirts, throwing them in a box of the van idling outside. Like really, Hey, we've got three days to get to New Jersey. We've got to leave. And just like, throwing stuff, you know, like just seat of our pants kind of operation and just driving straight to the East Coast. And we would do dumb shit like, oh, hey, we got a swap driver. Should we pull over?

No, just kind of scooch to the side and I'll scooch in beside you and I'll grab onto the wheel and then we'll save three minutes or so. We didn't take the time to pull over. We would switch driving while moving, which was just stupid. But, you know, it leads to some of the great stories and, you know, getting a flat tire here or there or stopping at, you know, camp sites or doing whatever. We just did, we did crazy stuff and had a blast.

I don't even think they'd had it before those shows.

We're writing good stuff. We're still putting out good stuff. We need to tour. We need to be out there. We need to be doing stuff. And at that point, a lot of bands were starting to go to Europe on a more regular basis. And I was just gung-ho.

And maybe this is going back to my mistakes with free will to against the wall thinking we need to do more we need to be doing stuff instead of just really being satisfied with what you have but my mindset at that point was like hey let's shit or get off the pot like John's in San Francisco working full time it's hard for him to get out of his situation and make himself available for the things the four of us are trying to do And Travis was busy with main season, but still giving us his time.

And we were still, we would really write and record practice tapes and send them to John and he would write the lyrics. And so like a lot of times we would show up in the studio or we'd show up wherever and we hadn't heard the vocals before. Like we had even played shows where like, we know how the song goes. We don't know how these vocals are going to go. And he would just knock out the vocals at a show. So we were even kind of ragtag, still able to do stuff we were really excited about.

And I just remember 94 being that, hey, let's do something or let's be over with it. So I think I kind of led the pledge. And also too, Jay had left.

in 94 and Jason Hampton had come in on bass and so I think it might have been like a time we were maybe feeling a little desperate but I think I kind of led the way on let's either do something or let's do something else and so we played our last show I want to say August 94 and I immediately joined Strife right after who had just released One Truth and were ready to go to Europe so It was kind of like, I'm not getting what I've worked for all this time, but I'm kind of getting the same sort of

reward, I guess, if that's the right word. But it was kind of like, if we're not going to do it, I'm going to go do it. So that's 94.

So we had actually gone on an East Coast tour with Sick of It All and then right into 95 had done four weeks with Sick of It All in Europe and then a week with Refused.

And like to go over with Sick of It All, like we're touring with Sick of It All, who was well established and some of the most incredible people ever. It was, and with a big, with a high-end booking company like MAD, it was just really like, wait, we get food every day and we get to play a show. Like, Like, what more do you need? That's the essential for five weeks? Come on.

And it was just like such a different, it's such a different experience too. And especially in 94, in Southern California, people were starting to get a little, a little spoiled. Uh, I'm sure everyone, including me in particular, but I just remember seeing people that just loved music in Europe and it wasn't as fragmented as Southern California was becoming where like every show was like shows were mostly straight edge bands.

And those that weren't were half straight edge, half just hardcore bands with like maybe, you know, uh, a far side type of band or somebody, but going over there, it was like, the people were so mixed and it was so, it was so enlightening to see like people just love music.

And I think they took the record that was done and maybe they somehow got the real, but I, but somehow they, redid a lot of the guitar tracks they did redid the vocals and i think they redid some bass stuff so on second thought maybe they they had some access to the the free will reel but it was basically the free will record and songs with an updated twist to it okay so stone telling came out we put it out on that network sound label we were doing uh so then again it was overlooked and on this

ambiguous label that nobody really knew anything about that had zero momentum. And I think they played one or two shows and really did not much after. Okay.

So I thought, well, to save the friendship here, I don't really agree with everybody at this time. And Todd, the other guitar player at the time, was kind of thinking like, yeah, you know, you want to do something together when we get home. So the surprise and swing was supposed to be Todd from Strife and I doing something new. And it ended up being, I got home. He was like, nah, I'm going to stay with Strife. So I was like, okay. And so I got together with Jason.

who ended up singing, who was the last bass player now spoken. And we got some dudes and just started trying to figure out what we were going to do. And I was really motivated because coming home from that Europe Strive Tour, I was like, hey, there's some stuff out there. We got to go. We got to travel. We got to do some stuff. We got to write some songs.

And so we immediately wrote the Suppression Swing 7-Inch which was a combination of Jason writing some stuff, myself writing some stuff, and Evan Mann, who was the other guitar player, wrote some of that stuff as well. That kind of just came out of really being inspired to kind of keep my momentum going and trying to get something else in the works.

Their van had not broken down, so they went to the next show, and we spent, I want to say, three or four days in Phoenix at a Ford dealer at Miscellaneous Mechanics trying to figure out what was wrong with the van. And I think they... I think Kill Holiday was in Salt Lake City or Idaho or somewhere on a show. And we were sitting in Phoenix literally every day thinking, okay, we've got to hop. Once the van place opens, we've got to jump on this thing. We've got to go.

We've got to meet up at the next show. We've got to pick up where we left off. And every day... It took, as you've been on tour, you know, you've booked your tour in a route. So after two days, you're two days behind. And then at three days, you're like, we're going to drive straight to Seattle or like, like, what are we going to do? And every day the van didn't work. So we just had, and literally top speed was 25 miles an hour with a cloud of black smoke behind it.

And we spent so much money on, trying to fix this thing and we like I think Kill Holiday did their last show and I drove or we drove the van home at 25 miles an hour sending up a cloud of black smoke just getting the worst gas mileage you can imagine and just drove it back home and I took it to a local mechanic who pulled a plastic shopping bag out of the air intake and he goes dude nobody thought to do this and I just remember being so fucking angry like I was paying mechanic after mechanic to

fix this van to save this tour and it's a fucking plastic bag in the air intake and just shrugging my shoulders like we bought new carburetors we tried everything and no one could figure this thing out so that was our 96 tour we came home we wrote more songs and we recorded the LP and we broke up during mixing and everyone was just kind of like fuck it and I'm like well We're a couple grand in the recording. I, as a label, should still put this thing out. I felt obligated. It was my band.

I put it out. It did okay. We never played a show supporting it. And it did what it did.

And I think things when you work hard and you put your heart into it, chances are you'll feel rewarded even if those rewards aren't, you know, limos and big houses and things. Like, it just seems to me like the most genuine efforts seem to have paid off the best in your return with a band and how it's received and a record and how it sounds. I could be completely off my rocker, but that's how I feel right at

because they had already done Europe and they were probably one of the earliest bands that had done Europe besides maybe Mean Season did Europe in 94-95 and Unbroken had done Europe so I really thought that we were going to be a key point with like we were going to come together with Strain at the same time and be this big team and They did the LP, which was just, if you listen to it, it just sounds really beefy. And it sounded like it needed the sound to support the sound they were making.

You know, like the record, the sound they created live was supported with a record that did it justice. But they played a handful of shows after. They didn't really do, they did the Europe tour, I believe, They did a little bit of West Coast stuff, and they were just kind of done. Yeah, but I mean, the record still stands heavier and gnarlier than a lot of stuff going on at that

You know, if you were just really coming out of no X members and no hype and all this stuff, you were really having to work hard to get results that, you know, would be a tour or bigger shows or those kind of things. And they were like, they're kind of for not really, they're kind of for unassuming guys, just like playing hardcore and playing punk and listening to the music.

And they weren't guys that rubbed elbows with the big guys, and they didn't really do a lot of schmoozing or anything like that. So they were really just a local hardcore band that was good, and they were good people. So I think if you weren't really trying to get up the rungs or trying to network and stuff, you would just write good music and play shows you got. So they could have done a hell of a lot more.

And also, too, I think some of the guys might have been work... constricted or school restricted. So I think that was just what they were doing. But yeah, I mean, I think they did the early seven inch on Indecision. They did the calm song, which is iconic, and then followed it with that seven inch. They definitely should have done more. And they all, like I hear from them after the new age 30 show, which they just destroyed. They were so incredibly good at the new age 30 show.

And it's just, like, they were their best. Like, they were the best they've ever been in 2018. And they were like, oh, yeah, we're gonna maybe write some new stuff. Maybe we got a practice place. And, like, they're just probably gonna pop out when no one's expecting it and just devastate people with how good they are able to be in 2018. Yeah,

And one of my faults or saving graces, I don't know, with the label has been with both being the label owner and a quote-unquote musician because when a band says, hey, we want to go do something, I, as a musician, says, yeah, everyone's music is theirs, why not? To where I've had trouble being the business guy saying, but we've got a deal. So when 1134, after they had released the LP, which I think is fantastic, which was a really hard LP to put out.

It took a long time and it was really expensive. So once it finally came out, it was kind of like a relief. They had gotten a tour offer to go to Europe with Ignite. And so I was like, okay, this is like, they're going to be off to the races with this LP. And we had gotten into some words or something and there was discussion about them going to Revelation. And at this point, they'd kind of become a bit of a headache. And I just remember going, okay, I'm totally with that. Like, that's fine.

And, oh, Revelation's going to take over and they're going to press the reality filter. And I was like, sounds great. Tell Jordan to call me. Let's talk. Let's do this thing. Like, whatever makes you guys happy and gets me out of having to deal with the situation that had arisen, I was good. And so... They told me, we're on Revelation. And I'm like, okay, that's great.

And so I had told the guys that I had working for New Age and Network Sound in Europe, who are now the guys running Cortex Records over there, I said, hey, we're not going to spend any more money on any tour support because they're on Revelation. And they were like, okay, no more money. So we stopped.

They were already in Europe, so it's not like we could have spent any more money advertising a tour that was in the process but it was like hey they're going on revelation and so uh sometime after that i talked to jordan and he was like i don't know what you're talking about and i was like they said that you're interested in putting this record up he was like dude i know i don't know this is news to me and i was just like what's going on here like what's what's not connecting and then the band

called me from Europe upset that I had halted any spending which was our everything had been spent already and I said you guys told me you were on Revelations and so there were words back and forth when they came back from tour they owed just shy of 10 grand in merch and records and they basically told me to go fuck myself and And so I was out 10 grand and that was the 1134 deal.

which I had reservations about quite a few and the band quickly had reservations about so they rescinded the deal and I thought or the offer and I thought that was a much better thing because I couldn't have done it right so outspoken played I don't even remember how that came about but It was Outspoken and Broken in the San Bernardino Arena, which was a show bigger than either band had ever played before, as far as I know.

So into 99, I put out the LP on New Age, which at that time, we were doing what was not cool, like being overly straighted, at least around the people we knew, like beat people over the head with this record, kind of straighted. nobody, we didn't get a lot of traction.

busy and also too is Steve wrote some like a decent amount of guitar parts so not only was I recall writing but Steve came up with a lot of that early stuff I mean there's riffs I can't remember how to play and that's how I know Steve must have written it but he would just show up with full songs like ready to go and so we were able to write stuff you know faster and you know I was more productive than any band previously.

And so we figured out we were going to go out in this moving truck with our equipment and a house full of whoever's stuff. And we were going to bury our equipment in the furthest part of the truck inside and cover it, move this person to the Midwest, and then go play a week's worth of shows in a moving truck. And we booked the shows, and the moving job canceled. So we were like, what the fuck? And that was going to be our paid way out there. We were like, we've got gas and a vehicle.

We're going to end up in the Midwest for free, and we'll have just got some work done, so we'll probably have some cash. So we ended up driving a Ford Taurus with a cargo rack on the top with all of our shit to pull off five shows, four shows. And I didn't want to cancel, and we wanted to play shows outside of California. So it was just a mix of, well, we got a car, and we'll borrow cabinets. Like, fuck it, let's just go.

So luckily... we were at a time and an age and a level of irresponsibility where we were able to do a bunch of shit anybody in their right mind probably would have said hey let's just do that some other time but the last two records we did were easily the most rewarding records I don't think they're thought of as if people lay out the things i've written or recorded on i don't think those records are a lot of people's favorites just because i think well for whatever reason but i think a18 really

didn't hit anyone's radar really hard

But after the first, when we did our first full tour, in Europe like we did five weeks off of the first record that came out on Victory called Forever After Nothing and we did five weeks we did some of the shows with Darkest Hour it was just like a really great we'd meet bands and play four or five shows together it was a great great experience where I think was the first time I felt like the band really had hit a point where we were really hitting all the right parts in the songs.

It just felt like we were really doing something together. And the shows were great. We had great turnouts and stuff in Europe. And then we came home and wrote and recorded the second record. And actually, the first LP on Victory was supposed to be on Revelation, which is a whole other story.

We've known you for however many years. They've distributed New Age for however many years. Great. Good deal. It's 2002, I want to say. And let's do it. So we signed for two records with Revelation. And we record the LP.

one of the songs comes out on a sampler for rev on a cd sampler they used to do those like cd samplers that would be given out on work tours and different things and i want to say it was us and curl up and die maybe on the same sampler um but it was a song or two from the record promoting coming out on revelations forever after nothing record and um I had gotten in a disagreement with an employee at Revelation that's not there anymore about something with them distributing New Age, if I'm not

mistaken. And we had had a disagreement or whatever, a fight, whatever you want to call it. And it had been figured out, whatever. But shortly after that, I received an email that said, oh, yeah. Okay, for the A-18 record, we're kind of concerned that the band isn't going to support the record as we had hoped.

So we're going to put you on Crisis Records, which is, or was at the time, a little side label Revelation had done that had put out, you know, the far side 7-inch, and I can't even think of what else, had come out on Crisis. And we were like, no. No, no, no. We've been up and down the West Coast. We've already been to Europe. We're going to go to Europe again. There's a big R at the top of this contract. We're on Revelation Records. Revelation Records needs to put out our record.

No, no, we're not going to do it. We're scared you're not going to support the record. And I knew that this news had come from my disagreement with said employee.

And Jordan was... the owner but wasn't very hands on with a lot of things and this situation wasn't going to change so we were in a situation where recording was already done, it was already paid for it was already in their hands they had already released a song on a comp sampler and now we needed to get busy, this record needed to come out so we could keep moving and we were at a standstill and I can't remember if it was Isaac or I had been speaking with our friend Clint that worked at Victory.

And we explained the situation and he was like, you got to be kidding me. They're not going to put that record out. And we had already sent him some of the songs and stuff. He already heard it. And he was just like, let me give you a call back tomorrow. And he called back the next day and was just like, hey, Would you want to be on Victory? And we're like, yeah. We're lost at sea right now, of course. Victory was huge at the time.

And so we were like, we're about to make a step up because of this weird situation we're getting put in. And so he's like, hey, Tony says he'll do it. So it was literally, we were drowning and somebody had thrown us a life preserver. And we were like stoked, cool.

we got sidelined but we're back on track and this stands to be much bigger and better and so there was a standoff because Revelation didn't want to release the record until the recording had been paid for and they had agreed to just release it for what the studio cost was and Victory wouldn't pay the money until the masters were in hand so it was really just like we've got to make this deal. What needs to happen? We came up with the money, paid Revelation. Revelation released the record.

The record went to Victory. Victory put it out. Then we went on tour and we toured the U.S. We did that keeping our commitment with those Midwest states. We toured the U.S. once. I think we did the West Coast two or three times. And then we did Europe. Uh, and, and we came home from Europe, really just, you know, burning on all cylinders recorded, wrote and recorded, uh, the, uh, record that came after that. It was called dear furious. And we're just, okay, let's fucking do this.

And then guys started quitting and the lineup started, uh, Fractioning or fragmenting. And then we just kind of came to a screeching halt.

And the drummer who played on the Dear Furious A-18 record, he and I had spent most of the summer grinding in a storage unit just with his laptop, I'm sorry, with his desktop computer, just demoing, demoing, recording, recording, demoing, where we were just at a point where we were just like clockwork We would just churn out songs. We would change parts. We would re-record the songs.

And it was the first time I'd ever been in a situation where you just sat and wrote and recorded and wrote and recorded. And to where that record sounds most consistent, I think, of things I've had a part in and is really just everyone doing their best. And it's the thing I'm most satisfied with.

So, uh, I don't need too many things more than that. Um, but that was, yeah, the lead into done dying coming at, uh, 2014, maybe

It was kind of like, it just, like I said, came out of convenience, but was not really the most rewarding band personally, as far as the material we were doing. I wrote some of it. Chris wrote some of it. I guess we each wrote probably equal amounts, but like some of it was just not, like it was fun, but I mean, it didn't really, I'd come out of things where I felt like, you know, sliced my guts open and poured them into records.

And then I was now getting into a point of life, kind of going through the motions, having fun, it being a hassle. And, you know, it had its benefits and it was fun to record some of the times and stuff. But I don't think any of the material... I look back at and say, wow, we were really hitting our, our marks or, or really, you know, we really hit any, any, you know, real, uh, real, real key, key parts there.

I just, don't really have a knack for it somehow. I've played enough of them, but setting them up, if it's something big, if it comes to a wrestling show, that I can put my knowledge behind. But for some reason, hardcore shows that have something bigger going on have just never been my strong point. So he did all the heavy lifting, contacted all the bands, We collectively picked the weekend, I think, that worked for the most bands.

So, yeah, it was just a time and a focal point for everyone just to get together and have fun. New bands, old bands, local bands, faraway bands, and some bands that couldn't play, members came. And so it was really just like, a great reunion, much better than a high school reunion or something where you've got to see old people you don't really have a lot in common with. I mean, these were guys that we really done a lot of stuff with together collectively.

And so it was just fantastic, you know, and the turnout was everyone who needed to be there was there. And, and, you know, it was, it was a ton of fun and it really, really, Everyone that I ran into had a great experience.

That is going to be a one-sided 12-inch EP. And then also The Dividing Line, one of my favorite bands, recorded an LP. We got test-pressed for that, just waiting for some layout elements. And yeah, it's funny.

There's a lot of stuff happening right this minute, but after those releases I just mentioned, there's there's a bit of a hole in the atmosphere coming up so I'm sure things seem to fall out of the sky in my lap so I'm sure 2021 will have well 2021 will definitely have the dividing line LP and I believe Red Bait is gearing up for an LP so I think it'll be more of the same band than maybe a new band or two

So there were some Europe distributors that were... not paying bills and then when that 1134 thing happened that was 96 ish we lost our warehouse right after that because we were just broke and in addition to that around the same time we had a distributor on the east coast left us I want to say about 30 grand in the hole so the mid to late actually the late mid-late 90s were pretty painful. So right after the Redemption 87 LP, we halted production.

We'd actually had the next Redemption 87 record, the one that ended up on blackout, we had and we had to turn away as well as the trial LP that went to Equal Vision was also slated for New Age. So there was a time right then when we just were dead in the water. We were stopped very short due to finances.