What's up, everyone? This week on the pod, I have Big Frank, who played in Cary Nation and also did Nemesis Records. It's a cool interview. We go through the early days of him working with Golden Voice and some of those early shows and then being at Fender's Ballroom for lots of that chaos. And then we go into Cary Nation, and I go through a lot of my favorite selections out of the Nemesis catalog. He was a great interview, and I really appreciate his time.
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Let's go.
185 miles south a hardcore punk rock podcast
what's up everyone this week on the pod i have the legendary orange county hardcore hero big frank and uh he was the would you say the owner or the runner of nemesis
Yeah, I owned it. I ran it.
Yeah, and then also of Cary Nation fame.
Yeah.
And we will get into all that. But as a veteran, I got to know, like, what year and how did you get into punk and or hardcore?
Well, I mean, I got into punk before hardcore. Basically, you know, the Ramones was my gateway in. And, uh, you know, I, I, I saw that first Ramones record in a, in a record store and just was like, I was just taken in by the cover and, you know, I just like went from there. And then I had, uh, I had, um, there was a power record in, um, in West Covina that I used to go to.
And there was a girl there who was really into the L.A. punk scene, and she turned me on to all the L.A. bands, like X and the Weirdos and the Bags and the Eyes, like all the Danger House, all the early Danger House bands. And, you know, I love the punk rock scene, but I was never into the... the drinking and drug culture of that.
They seem to embrace a lot of it, you know, and so for me, hardcore really started, well, I guess before with the bad brain, but the one that, you know, when I heard, you know, minor threats lyrics, that was pretty much it, you know, it's like, Oh wow. Okay. There are people that feel the way I do. You know, I don't have to be, I don't have to live this weird lifestyle that I'm not really a part of.
And, and are you around when the minor threat seven inches come out? Oh yeah. Yeah. And so how, how, how are they received? Like is, is someone that's like already been into punk for a couple of years in Southern California and then minor threat filler comes up? Like
what? Oh man. You know, okay. Here's, here's the funny thing is I think, I heard the second 7-inch before I heard the first one. I'm pretty certain I heard... Yeah, I'm pretty certain that I heard one before I heard the other. I don't know how far apart they were released. Probably in the same year,
right? Yeah, it's the same year. They're both 81, I think.
Yeah, you know, so it was... I just happened, for whatever reason, I happened... This is like... Oh, God. No... No, no, that wouldn't have been, yeah, it wouldn't have been pre-Zed Records, but do you know about Zed Records?
Yeah, I went several times, including the final week. I think I went like the very last day, maybe whenever it was like 90% off. That was a wild day. Wow. Yeah. But definitely not in the 80s. I guess I would have been the tail end of the 90s, like 97-ish, 97, 98. Yeah,
I lost track because I moved away. I'm jumping all over the place. This is kind of getting... But yeah, I moved away before the ending happened. Okay. I don't know. Should I stay on topic?
No, we can talk about Zed's a little bit, but it was, it was super cool. That's, that's funny that you weren't there, but I remember like the, I think it was like the final. I'm just
trying to think of where I bought those seven.
Okay. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. I was trying to remember where I bought them, you know, right offhand. I can't remember. I remember going into a record store in, in Colorado because I was dating someone. And for some reason we ended up in Colorado and, and going into this Wax Tracks record store, and they had like, they had multiple copies of the first 7-inch on different, like with the different colored sleeves. I was like, how are these still, why is no one buying these?
And this is like when they were already kind of, I think they were still pretty collectible, you know, and they just had them sitting on the shelves. But I don't know where I can't remember where I actually bought those first two seven inches. But yeah, I think I heard in my eyes before I heard filler. And then I mean, it was immediately after I was like, you know, it's one of those things where as soon as you hear something, you're like, well, do they have anything else?
You know, and then I was like, oh, they have this other seven. It actually came out first. I'm like, oh, I got to have that. You know, and then so it was. pretty short-lived, and then I was just like, oh, my God, this is it.
You know, you just, you know, it wasn't, because I wasn't even, I wasn't even to that point, you know, I mean, the lyrics to, like, Ramones songs are pretty silly a lot of the time, you know, you know, a lot of, I wasn't really into the lyrics, I was more into the, the driving passion of the music, but, like, when I heard Minor Threat, like, They had the driving passion and the lyrics. So it was like, it was a perfect, a perfect mesh for me.
Yeah. Were you able to see them when they came out? And did they come out in 81 or 82?
Yeah. I saw, I see you. Yeah. They played the barn. Remember the.
In Riverside?
Yeah. No, it was, I think it was in Forrest.
Okay.
And it was the Dead Kennedys. Minor Threat, MBC, The Zero Boys, and The Detonators. I might miss the band in there, but I think that's all of them. Jesus. Yeah, that was an amazing show. And you know, the thing was, I wasn't even a huge Ted Kennedy fan. The two bands I went there to see were The Zero Boys and Minor Threat.
Yeah, and so what was the cap on that place?
Oh, God. I want to say under 500. Okay.
And was it packed to the brim?
Yeah, it was packed. Totally packed.
Yeah. And just so you know, I'm only 40, so I miss this stuff by a long time. No, it's okay. I always try to get the perspective of like, because all those bands are legendary now. Right, right. Was everyone there like, was MDC huge already? Were the Zero Boys huge? Was everyone there to see
everyone?
No.
No, the only bands that were minor threat had definitely had a following, and Dead Kennedys were already well on their way to being huge. But I would say you had to really know your shit to know. Honestly, I had not heard of MDC to that point. I didn't know Dave at that point. I didn't know much about him. And to be honest, I'm not even sure I saw their set that night. I definitely saw the Zero Boys, though.
Yeah, and
how were they? They were amazing. That first record, I'm sure you've heard that first record.
Yeah, I have.
Vicious Circle.
Yeah. Yeah, amazing.
So
solid. So good. Well, that rules. But what's it like getting into Minor Threat when they come out? Because what's next? Nothing really ever touches it again. So like, what do you latch on to next?
Oh, um, geez. Well, I mean, there was minor threat and then there was, well, the Misfits, you know, were amazing too in their own, in their own way, you know, totally different thing, you know, totally different. Well, not, I wouldn't say totally different style, but you know, in a way, you know, different, uh, subject matter for sure. For sure.
For sure. Yeah. And when was the first time that you were able to see them? I
saw him on the walk among us tour.
Oh my God. And how was it? Do you remember where you saw him at?
Yeah. Well, I saw him twice in one night. I saw him, they played at the whiskey and that was, uh, an amazing show. And then I got word during the show that they were going to do a second show at Al's bar. And so like we all piled in the car and raced over to Al's bar and that's become kind of a legendary show too.
Yeah. And a legendary place. And so I've, I've been in the whiskey. What was the cap on Al's bar?
Oh, Al's bar was probably a couple
hundred and not very big. And again, it was packed to the brim.
Yeah, it was pretty packed. But, you know, maybe not as packed as you'd think, because I think it was meant to be kind of a secret show. One of those things like, kind of like when, I think when Minor Threat came out as a five-piece, I think they played the Café de Grand, and I didn't get to see that show. I never saw them as a five-piece. I only saw them with the original lineup.
Yeah, that's so cool. That's so cool. And now you were involved with Golden Voice in some of the early 80s shows. Is that correct?
Pretty much all of them.
Okay. And so what was your role there?
Well, I think I was brought on at first because I was... I think I was level-headed and I could talk to people easily and... I could be kind of a peacemaker. And so I was brought, but I think I was brought on because I was pretty big, you know, I was fairly, you know, I could, and I could take care of myself.
So, you know, they brought me on for security reasons, but then when they realized I actually had a brain in my head too, you know, then I got quite quickly, it moved up to, okay, you're the stage manager. Okay, now you're just, you know, you're pretty much, everything that happens out here on the floor is up to you, you know. It's a pretty interesting time period.
Yeah, what year did you start doing that?
Early 80s. Okay. I want to say 83.
Okay, and do you remember, like, one of the first or a few shows that you did?
Um... Does the first show, are you hearing that beeping?
I'm not.
Oh, okay, good. The first show would have been, well, at the time I was also writing, I was starting to do some writing for Flipside fanzine.
Okay.
And so like, I don't know how, sometimes I would hear things, you know, I had, you know, everybody, it was through the grapevine, you know. pre-internet and pre-cellphones, honestly. And somehow we heard that GBH was gonna be in town and they were gonna be at this hotel. And so me and Al from Flipside, I'm not sure who else went, but I know it was me and Al, went there and interviewed GBH. And we immediately hit it off.
And I got along with these guys great after talking to him for a couple hours. I was like, well, where are you guys going from here? He's like, oh, well, we're playing Santa Monica Civic and then we're going to go on tour. I was like, well, I want to go on the road with you guys. I had known him for two hours. I was like, I just want to go on the road with you. And so I just jumped on the road with him for the next two weeks.
And in the meantime, I had done the I went with them to the Santa Monica Civic Show and ran into Gary Tovar, who ran Golden Voice. This was my first exposure to these people. He didn't even like me at first. He was just like, who is this guy? Why is he here? I'm with them. Everybody had to get their foot in the door somehow, I
guess. Sure. What was the Santa Monica Civic Center like? What was the cap there, and what was the vibe? A
big kind of a union-run hall, had rules and regulations. Compared to the Olympic Auditorium or Fenders or Perkins Palace, those places where we made the rules, Santa Monica Civic had definite, you know, they'd been there for, I don't even know how long they'd been there, you know, at least into the 60s or 70s. And, you know, so, you know, they've had years of how to do it right and, you know, run things what they thought was right, you know, which they probably were right.
But they were very structured, like they knew how to do it as opposed to these other ones where we were just kind of figuring it out on the fly.
So would it hold like 2,000, 3,000? Oh, no.
Probably, I want to say around 5,000. Oh,
my God. And so GBH in 83, this would be them on the City Baby Attacked by Rats album or City Baby's Revenge in that era? I
want to say before... It's definitely before City Baby's Revenge. I think it's City Baby Attacked by Rats.
And they're drawing 5,000 people in Santa Monica?
For that show they did. I could be wrong with my numbers. I'm just guessing at the size. But it was definitely in the 3,000 to 5,000 range.
It's just mind blowing, like missing that generation and like thinking back that that many people went to see like real legit, like punk bands, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they, I think they, you know, Golden Voice was really good at loading up bills too. You know, if they had, if they'd have the circle jerks on there who were, you know, pretty big at the time and, you know, and, you know, bad religion who was not what they are now, but you know, they were still very popular or black flag, you know?
So, so what's the vibe in the crowd? Like, is it like just a, a cross section of people? Cause that's so many people that there has to be like just a bunch of normal dudes. Like not everyone is like a maniac.
Yeah, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. That you, there was like, you know, everything from surfers to, you know, Venice gang members and everything. The complete package of probably curious onlookers and dedicated fans.
When does the gang thing start becoming more prominent?
Probably a couple years later. I don't know. Before Yeah, I would say mid-80s.
Okay.
So, like, this is... Mid-80s.
Like, this time... Well, this early time is, like, good vibes, then, kind of. It's
just... Well, I wouldn't say good vibes, but, you know, you definitely didn't want to piss off the wrong people.
Sure.
You had to have street smarts, you know what I mean? Like, okay, those guys, you don't want to mess with those guys. Okay, those guys over there... You know, I don't know. I was always of the mind that, you know, I wanted to get to know a couple of them. Maybe if you knew a couple of the sensible ones, you know, you could get through to some of the other ones or at least keep the other ones off of you. You know, it's almost like a self-preservation tool.
I mean, I can go clear back to junior high school and having... members of the Crips walk onto my junior high school and beat the fuck out of somebody and then just like walk off the campus and you know you're a little kid you just saw something straight out of a movie happen and then like fast forward to a few months later I'm riding my bike through this neighborhood and this kid comes up and drop kicks me off my bike and just walked away with my bike.
And I knew he was the brother of one of these Crips. And I saw the brother who had come onto the campus and punched the guy, and I go, hey, man, I know who you are. I have nothing but respect for you. Can I please get my bike back? I got to go clear to the other side of town, blah, blah, blah. And he gave it back to me. So, like, I don't know. I think from an early age I've had... No, I feel
the same way. I'm not intimidated by that stuff at all. Like one time I moved into this new apartment complex and like, there's like a full on gang party, like, you know, three apartments down. And, and I just told my roommate who I moved in with, it's like, I'm going to go meet everyone. He's like, what are you talking about? You're going to go over there? I was like, of course. They live here. They don't want trouble with their neighbors.
And I went, and it was funny because everyone's out front partying and shit. And you got to be like, oh, who are you? I'm like, I'm the neighbor. I'm just here to meet whoever lives here. And kind of like the sea parts.
And you go inside the house, and the main dude's in there with his grandma and and shit you know and I'm like hey I'm just your new neighbor came to say hi you know I was like oh I appreciate that you know and then he's my friend from there on and no problems with anything you know you gotta do that and you gotta do it on day one you
know yeah yeah yeah I agree you know you just you know you gotta like I don't know you just you know whatever you gotta do you know I mean that you know even up to more recently when you know I lived in Sacramento and you know I could tell what you know I'm really good I guess from from doing martial arts a good chunk of my life like I was really good at like going into a room and not just walking in blindly like seeing what's in the room who's in the room where are the exits you know what I
mean like if you have to move quickly I don't know, just more self-preservation tools.
No, I feel you for, for me on that, that front, it was like after that great white fire, you know,
that you took it right out of my head. That's exactly, especially the knowing where the exits are.
Yeah. Yeah. And then also just kind of sizing up the whole place, like, because so many people would have survived if they would have known that there was an exit, like behind the stage, you know, that a lot of people don't think about. And it's like, Man, that's the way I'm going. But anytime I walk into a room where there's a lot of people, I'm like, okay, there's there, there's there. You're just thinking about how you can get out if she hits a fan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, but back to Punk, you have such a good, long story that I need these – these earlier dudes that were around to just kind of paint the picture of what it was like back then. So if you could pluck out like a couple standout of like that golden voice era, before I go into the, before I go into the fenders era, just like, right. I
can even go before the golden voice. There was this guy. Um, I'm sure you've heard of circle one. Sure. John, John Macias. And he was putting on shows and, uh, It was pretty close to where I lived. And, you know, he was good friends with, like, Aggression. And he was good friends with a lot of bands, you know, because he had a decent band, you know. And for some reason, he liked me. It was another one of those cases where, like, you know, I made friends with John Macias. His friends hated me.
All the people that hung around him did not like me. But for some reason, John liked me. So John would have me come to his shows and work with him, like run his stage. While I was, this was like right at the beginning of Golden Voice or, you know, because there wasn't that many. It was this place called the T-Bird Roller Rink. Okay. It was right on the edge of Whittier. And yeah, it was pretty interesting.
And then those, you know, it's, those early Golden Boy shows were just, you know, kind of just organized chaos, you know, and kind of finding the, trying to find the eye of the storm and then don't get caught in the tornado.
Yeah. Is there a barrier at the Golden Boy shows?
Early on, no. Later on, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, it just kind of evolved. It's just like, You know, early on, no barricades, and the security was all hand-picked pretty much by me, based on what I thought was, you know, intelligence and strength and could handle a situation. You know, I wanted people around me that could, you know, help me if shit hit the fan. And luckily, I always had a pretty good group.
Yeah, but you're also thinking of the cooler mentality, too. Not just beat it with force. If you can calm
down the situation. Strength with intelligence. If things go bad, it would be like if I had to go into war, who would you want next to your side? I'd want Delta Force next to my side or a team of Navy SEALs. They're smart, strong, and won't be beat.
Yeah, for sure.
As opposed to, you know, just a bunch of dudes.
Yeah. I mean, I would take a prime Patrick Swayze, but what are you going to do? Or Sam Elliott?
Yeah, yeah. Well, Sam Elliott, he'd talk his way out of anything.
Yeah, with that beautiful baritone voice. Yeah,
yeah.
You know. So, the scene, like, in the Cause obviously like if it's drawing like 3000 people, three to five for like these huge shows, um, by the time, like it kind of moves from like that, like the Santa Monica civic to like the fenders era, is it like, is it going down to a thousand people or, or like, no,
those, those fender shows would, if they, I think that room, that room had a capacity of, I want to say,
um,
under 1,000, and they would, on any given night, have way over 2,000 people in there.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, and it was just like the walls would be sweating. It was pretty nuts.
Hard to breathe. Do you remember what year that started?
Well, it was like 83, 84, 85, I want to say, was the Olympic Auditorium heyday. A little bit earlier, maybe a little bit later, but that was the chunk of it. And then once, I forget why it happened, but the Olympics started having less interest in doing those shows, and so Fenders just picked up the slack. And in between there, there was also a bunch of shows in Pasadena at Perkins Palace.
And what was that place like?
That was like an old theater, like, you know, with like balconies and like little, those little alcoves on the side that like were like private seats, like were there at one point.
Okay. And then all the seats
are... Yeah, it was like a traditional theater.
Got you. But the seats are ripped out?
The first few rows were, like the orchestra pit. Okay. Basically, there was an orchestra pit.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
Gotcha. So, like, some people would be, like, sitting in seats or, like, standing in seated areas, and then there'd be a pit down front? Yeah,
yeah, you could definitely... Yeah, you could definitely... There were seats, but they would... They... The first, I don't know, five rows were taken out.
Yeah. That's super cool. So
there was an open floor, but Perkins Palace was, like, also... That orchestra pit made it a real treacherous place, especially with people trying to stage dive and... I don't know if you've ever seen someone try to stage dive into an orchestra pit. It doesn't usually go well.
That's great. So what was Fenders like?
Fenders was kind of crazy. It was not a great neighborhood in Long Beach. The police were kind of... always on edge. That was a rough area of Long Beach. I don't know. I think some of the gang stuff started to really get a foothold. More in Fenders. Maybe it was there at the Olympics, but I didn't see it as much. But in Fenders, it was right in your face. Like, And it became harder to control.
How so?
Well, not everybody would listen to you. Gotcha. Some people would, but then some people wouldn't. They'd just walk away from you and just like, oh, okay, didn't get through to him. I don't
know. Do you think that it was getting bigger and so some of the people at shows were disconnected from the music? Maybe that gang stuff was there. in the early days, but like they were actual fans of the music. And now as it evolved, like there were some people that actually weren't in the music were just there for like the chaos.
Oh yeah, definitely. There definitely were, you know, and a lot of kids came from broken homes and stuff, you know, and so they're, they're, you know, looking for their own families, you know, they're trying to find, you know, the gangs are really attractive to somebody that has that much family structure and,
Yeah, and was there, like, a powerhouse gang? Like, or were, like, they all kind of, like, equal? Like, everyone, like, took their lumps some nights?
I wouldn't say they were equal, but I hesitate to name names and say one over the other. Because, you know, depending on who showed up and how many of whoever showed up, could change the odds on any given night.
It's strange, like, thinking about a band like Bad Religion, though, and thinking that they have, like, an association with, like, a punk gang. Like, they were associated with the lads, right?
Yeah. I suppose. I don't think any of them were involved.
So it might have just been some of their buddies, and, like, it was kind of, like, an affiliation.
Yeah, just friends. Just friends. Or they just happened to be you know, fans. Gotcha.
Gotcha. So what were the, some of the standout shows that you saw at, uh, vendors
at vendors, uh, standout show. I always, I always say that like one of the best standout shows was, um, Iggy pop. That was like, he, I, I think he had, uh, the. If he fails his kids on, um, in his band. That was a crazy punk show. You wouldn't think of all the shows I saw there that Iggy Pop would be the craziest, and it very well could have been.
That's so cool. That's so
cool. Yeah, I mean, obviously, Slayer. Slayer was crazy. Although, I don't know if they played... I'm not sure if they played Tenders. I know we did the Olympic with them. Okay. But... And then... The conflict show at Fender's was pretty legendary. I think that was partly because it was so well documented. Right. Like, flip side, that was actually my doing. I was like, you've got to document this show. And, like, I got them to do it with multiple cameras.
And, like, back when people weren't, it wasn't like now, you know, like the 856, like Sonny. does with dual cameras and stuff and he has like a drum camera and all that i mean they didn't do that back then he's everywhere with one camera standing on the side of the stage and flip side was trying to push it you know and trying to do stuff with multiple cameras and stuff and i got him to go to that conflict show and thank goodness because it's a legendary show now
Yeah, so cool. So cool. On the Cary Nation 7-inch, it says like 85 to 89. Does Cary Nation start in 85?
You know, the funny thing was Cary Nation actually started before No For An Answer. We had a rehearsal, and it was me and Dave Mello from Uniform Choice. I forget what we were doing, but we got invited. And he goes, oh, these guys want to jam with me. I'm like, you want to go too? So it's weird because like that first, it was basically just a rehearsal in 85, I think. And then nothing came of it. And then it turned into, then they turned into No For An Answer.
I was like, oh, I guess Terry Nation wasn't going anywhere. And then After No For An Answer went down, then Dan wanted to do this project, which got much... He just wanted it to be a project. Of course, I wanted it to be the biggest band ever. I wanted to be a popular band. I wanted to do what I'd seen my heroes do.
Yeah, well, I mean, the songs are epic, and if you think about it, The Savage comes out in 89, but there's a lot of blueprint hardcore stuff there, like really kind of milky and build-ups and so forth that would go on to be like a blueprint for a Strife-type band that blew up in the 90s. You guys really do that build-up-type stuff really well when no one else is kind of doing that stuff in 89. Yeah.
Go ahead. That was a fun time.
Yeah, I think that's really standout stuff. But that would be jumping ahead to 89. Yeah. But also, the year before is when you start Nemesis, 1988. Uh-huh. What is the impetus? Why do you want to go that route and start a label?
Well, I'd seen a couple of my friends... Well, Dan had Work Shed Records. Dan O'Mahony had Work Shed Records. And I had another friend who had started this label called Sympathy for the Record Industry.
Sure.
And he had put out like 500 records, like some crazy amount of records. And I was just like, well, this sounds fun. And it's a good way to like, you know, make a mark. And then I started having bands that were coming into Zedd all the time. And they're like, man, I wish we could get somebody to put this out. And then I kind of figured out how Dan was doing it. So then I started using the same sort of blueprint for running my own label.
Yeah, so your first release is Visual Discrimination, Step Back and Listen, correct? Yeah. And I love that record.
Oh, good. That's awesome.
Yeah, Those Drugs is one of the greatest hardcore songs ever. Awesome. I love it. So how do you come across this band?
I came across everybody at Zedd. Zedd was like the hub. If I didn't know you, I probably wanted to know you. And if you were a fairly popular band, I wanted to carry, at the very least, your demo. You know, demos were a big thing. People would bring in these demos and just, you know, like instead and just sell the shit out of them.
So cool. Yeah.
And so visual discrimination basically had this whole album was done. Like it was recorded and all the artwork was done. I think somebody else might've been like slated to put it out and they didn't. Okay. I was like, well, I think I can put it out. And so they're like, oh, okay, that'd be cool. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. Once I realized I had a formula that would work, it worked until it didn't work.
Yeah, I mean, because Nemesis is super prolific. You did a ton of stuff. But let's talk about this first record. So how does it feel to go through the whole process and get the LP in your hands the first time, knowing that this is something you created?
Yeah.
Um, I don't know. I think I just, I was so busy at the time. I had no real inkling to admire it. You know, I was just like busy, you know, I mean, I worked basically seven days a week. If I wasn't working at Zed Records, I was working. And basically I wasn't just working at Zed Records.
I was running Zed Records because the owner's son, um, you know he was kind of he was kind of being more low-key so like he was letting me do everything so i was basically running zed records running my own record label out of zed records and then when i wasn't doing that i was working concerts day and night you know so rad
you're like
so i didn't really have time to think about what i was doing it's only when you like get 20, 30 years out of it, and then you look back and go, oh yeah, I guess I did do something.
But are you able to see what it does for this band? Did they have a demo before the LP?
I think they did.
But are you able to see what their popularity is like pre- and post-LP?
Yeah, I mean, but the it's hard for me to gauge it now because I was comparing you know I was comparing at the time I was like I wanted you know if Revelation can do this I can do it sort of you know maybe I can't do it as good as Jordan but like I can do it well enough you know and so I was trying to I was trying to compete with who I saw as like Victory or Revelations, I guess. Or even smaller, like Dan wasn't really, Dan was just kind of putting out his friend's band.
Whereas I started getting these ideas, I wanted to put out a band from every major city, and then I wanted to put out bands from all over the world. It just never, it never hit its full fruition.
I want to go through some of the releases because I love a lot in the Nemesis catalog.
Oh,
cool. But VD, what was this band like in their prime? And were they as wild as some of the rumors are?
What rumors?
Well, I heard a rumor once that they beat up Chain of Strength. But then I talked to Ryan Hoffman and he said that never happened.
I don't think that's ever happened.
I don't think... I hope not. I
don't think
that's it. But just as if they were wild characters like that, like kind of scrappy.
Their singer was definitely scrappy. Jeff Banks was a trained boxer at some point, but that was much later. That was more when he got into the whole course of disapproval. Sure.
Yeah, I really like this band a lot. Oh, that's awesome. I think of their comeback. Like, they did that comeback 7-inch in, like, the 90s. Jeff wasn't in the band anymore, but Tim was still singing. And that is, like, one of the greatest 7-inches. Like, especially for, like, a comeback later. Did you ever hear that thing? You know, I'd be honest and say I don't think I have. Oh, you got to look it up. It's called Serial Killers, I think. And it's, like, it might have come out in 97.
It is blazing awesome. Awesome hardcore. It is so good. That's
awesome. Jim's a great singer. Did you ever hear the stuff he did with Final Conflict?
I didn't realize he did anything with them, no.
He did an EP with Final Conflict, and man, that was a solid record. I'm
going to buy it on Discogs tonight. How about that? Yeah, I don't
know. I wish I could tell you what it's called, but I can't.
No, I'll find out. I'll go down that rabbit hole. Okay. So next after VD, the other one I plucked out was Reason to Believe. You do the next door 7-inch. And this thing is perfect melodic hardcore. I mean, I love it. Yeah,
I would agree.
Yeah. How did you feel about it at the time? And then it was also like, was it like a split release with Soulforce? What was that all about?
No, no. Soulforce did their run and they were done with them. I think it was another case of I just think they had run its course, and I think they wanted to do more. And I was like, well, let's do more. Let's re-release it. Because I think the Soulforce run was pretty limited. I don't even know how many they did. I want to say they only did like 500 copies.
And then you picked it up because you didn't want it to be out. And you did the LP2 in 90, and And I love LLP, the When Reason Sleeps Demons Dance. Yeah, I love that record, too. Oh, my God, I love it so much. And I actually got really lucky with that, and I think the second VD, I found the test presses at Lou's Records in San Diego probably 20 years ago. That's wild. Yeah, and so I was able to sell the Reason to Believe one. Not that I wanted to, but... I had to.
Well, actually, I guess I didn't have to. I'm a huge Tom Waits fan, and there was a Tom Waits test press on eBay, and I basically sold this for the same amount that I was going to buy the Tom Waits one for, so I basically traded for it. Oh,
yeah. Sounds like a good trade. Yeah, I had to do
that. But, yeah, that was one of the best record scores of my life. I remember like, oh, my God, I just got VD and Reason Leaf test presses for $4 each. Like, this is fucking amazing. That's wild. Yeah, it was so cool. Did you and Dan O, did you beef over who's going to do the Carry Nation 7-inch?
Oh, no, not at all. Not at all.
It was
always going to be on Workshed. It was never going to be on Nemesis. There was never even any discussion.
It was always going to be... I mean, Carry Nation was... got together to be a project band on workshed like it was never met we didn't get together as a band like okay we're gonna play and we're gonna tour and here's blah blah blah you know everything other than the seven inch was pretty much like any t-shirts or if you've seen any pictures of like the huge backdrop we used to have and Like, that was all me.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you do get a Cary Nation song, though, on your label, because you do the No Control at the Country Club 7-inch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do, too. Yeah. We're on the East meets West, too.
Yes, that's right. One
was Sick of It All and Killing Time.
Yeah, what a killer 7-inch to do Sick of It All and Killing Time. That's amazing.
I know. It was like I had to document that one. It was like... I had gotten all these really cool bands to come out. I mean, that's the only time Vision or Killing Time has ever played the West Coast.
Oh, crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. I didn't realize that. But talking about the No Control of the Country Club, this is so cool because do you think that when Fenders was slowing down, kind of the scene shifted over to the Country Club? Because it seems like it got really prolific. Yeah,
yeah, it did. Okay. It definitely did.
Yeah, and this is a killer show to document. Bad Religion Instead, VD, and Cary Nation, 1990. Yeah,
that was the first Cary Nation show, too.
Oh, was it? Yeah. Were you nervous before you played?
No, honestly. I think I'd been on the stage so long that it was just like I just took it a step further and put a guitar around my head. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was just like, and I didn't look, I wasn't like looking for, I wasn't looking at people's faces going, oh, I don't like us, or, you know. I knew we had good songs, and I just played them.
Yeah, so cool.
I just tried to play them tight, you know, and that was enough for me. Do
you have any other memories of that show?
I remember Kevin and Steg going, wow, you guys are really cool. you're pretty good. I'm like, Oh, thanks. You know, but it was, uh, I, I, I do. I remember Dan saying that he only wanted to do that one show.
Okay.
And then, uh, one show turned into two shows and then turned into a bunch of shows. And a year later, you know, we had our last show.
Yeah.
Well, we lasted a year.
That's crazy. Yeah. But you got some good documentation on that band. I was Googling around on you guys. There's like a little 15-minute documentary on YouTube, which is pretty rad. Oh,
with me and Dan? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've seen that. That was done by this guy, Mario, who was a friend of Igby. I don't know if you know who Igby is.
I do. I know Igby.
Oh, okay, yeah. He's a friend of Igby, and he made that little quick... Perry nation documentary.
So cool. Yeah. So also going back to 89, you do the vision in the blink of an eye LP and yeah. So how do you come across them? And this is a really underrated hardcore LP, I think.
Oh, I agree. You know, I think it's more appreciated now than it was then.
Okay. And still under, underappreciated now. I mean like these guys are, they're touching like some melody. It's really catchy. It's just a, it's a, Good, good hardcore LP. How do you meet these guys, and how do you do the LP?
I met them through the guy who was helping me do my distribution, this guy Kane Boychuk, who ended up being Headhunter Records. He ended up working with Cargo. But he basically, he's like, hey, these guys, from New Jersey, Vision. They're looking for a label. He did this with me for a couple bands. And Vision was the first one. I believe Vision was the first. Vision or, yeah, I think Vision was first and then Offspring.
Okay.
But they were both like, like, Cain didn't know what to do with them. He's like, do you want to put them on your label? I was like, yeah, I'll put them on my label.
Yeah, killer. And you loved the LP back then.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, this is going to be a great record, you know? I always thought I would do... I thought I had a blueprint that I thought I could do more than I did.
And how so?
I just thought I could sell more. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just... I didn't understand why I couldn't... sell more you know but well
you might have said to yourself because if they only toured out here once you know that yeah that is not that prolific
no no i mean though like the hardest working band you know probably on my label would have been instead you know and they they toured all the time you know and they sold a ton of records
yeah and that's who i'm getting to next because instead we'll make the difference seven inch one of the greatest hardcore records of all time
Yeah, some of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, too. Just genuinely nice people. So easy to work with.
Yeah, so cool. I mean, I didn't meet him until years, years later when they did the reunion stuff. But that 7 Inch is like, man, to a song. I remember one of my bands we played. We played this house show in South Central and probably... 97, 98. And there was, there was three bands, like there was four bands playing and three of us covered instead. It was like, it was so funny. Yeah. But I mean, that's seven, that's seven inches holds up.
Um, the next thing I got is obviously you do the, the offspring, the first LP and, uh, and so this came to you the same way as a vision, but when you hear this, do you, uh, How do you feel about it, and do you think that they have the potential to turn into what they turned into?
Oh, God, no. If I would have known that, I would have done so much. That would have been like, oh, man, that was my friend that had sympathy for the record industry. I mean, he basically made a career out of those White Stripes records, those early White Stripes records. And he's like, this is your chance. This is your chance now to have your white stripes moment with these guys. When they broke, I was like, I don't have them under contract.
I don't know what kind of contract you had, but I didn't. The funny thing about Offspring was they were the only band in all the bands I ever released that actually made me sign like a three year, like we're on your label for three years and then we're done.
And they get the rights after three years?
Yeah. So by the time they broke, I had no rights to them anyway. So they knew something I didn't know. They had a vision of where they wanted to go. And it just wasn't working at the time when I was trying to do it. And I did try. I tried to push them. I put them on... what was arguably one of the biggest punk shows back then. It was like Tugazi, Offspring, and 411 at the Hollywood Palladium. Sold out.
Wow.
You know, so I did try to push Offspring, but to hear Brian talk, you know, to hear Brian talk, you'd say I didn't try and do anything for the band. I was just like, oh, that's not really true. I tried really hard. You just weren't popular when I had you. And I didn't have the means like Epitaph to promote a band. I don't think I'm going to get a video on MTV through Nemesis.
Sure, and it's also, you know, you're four or five years early. Like, just stuff wasn't as popular right then. Like, that was... Right. I mean, I wasn't around, so I shouldn't speak on it. I should ask you. No,
no, no, but you're right.
But, like, 89 is a weird year for punk, right? Like, straight-edge hardcore is, like, kind of popping, but for, like, punk, 89 is interesting.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was. You know, the funny thing, too, is back then, like, in that short period where Carrie Nation was going, I mean, we... We were packing clubs every time we played, and Offspring couldn't get 30 people into a show at that time. Sure. You know, but that's just
funny how that plays. Yeah, it's funny how that plays. I really like this early stuff, though, and the reason to believe in this Offspring stuff sound really similar to me. And there's nothing really after that that ever sounds like this stuff again. So I kind of have a warm spot for it. Yeah,
I thought Ignite tried to a little bit in the early, you know.
Yes, they have a little bit of that, like where it's melodic, but it's like a little bit of a darker melody. I can totally see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But Ignite really leaned into the speed.
Yeah.
And this stuff is a little more of like up-tempo, mid-tempo. Right. So a little different. 89, also, another 7-inch that I absolutely love, the Against the Wall Identify Me 7-inch. Oh, yeah, that's an interesting one. Yeah. What makes it interesting, you think?
Well, the interesting part was there was a band on one of the live 7-inches I did called Push the Side.
Sure.
The singer of Push the Side was the bass player in Against the Wall. Randy... Randy Johnson? Yes, Randy Johnson. Yeah, that's him. And I was supposed to... I was going to put out the Push the Side 7-inch, which I wanted to go in and record all their songs. You know... I want new recordings and blah, blah, blah. And I don't know, something went sour. Like, I don't know what happened. And like, I didn't end up doing the push to side seven inch.
And then all of a sudden Madrid comes at me with the against the wall. I'm like, oh, okay. Of all the people, like Madrid was like connected to all these other labels. And I was like, none of these other guys wanted that. I don't know why they wouldn't want to do this, you know? Right. Yeah. I was, uh, I was kind of baffled, but really happy. I got to do it because it was a good, really good seven inch.
Yes. A good record. And I don't, did the push decide to ever even come out? I think that they just did a demo. It
came out on indecision
way later though. Not until way later.
And it was just a real, they just took the demo and, put it on a 7-inch.
Right, right. But way, way after the fact.
Oh, way after the fact.
Yeah, okay. That's right. In 1990, this is super cool, you do the Uniform Choice demo. And I was wondering, you do a double 7-inch. Why do a double 7-inch instead of like an LP?
Because I thought it would be... That gets back to my friend with Sympathy for the Record Industry. He was always doing these weird formats, like instead of doing a seven-inch record, he did a five-inch record. Instead of doing, you know, you know what I think? I think part of it, too, was I realized you could fit, if you did it right and did it at the right speed, you could fit a whole LP onto a couple seven inches because I'd seen it with bootlegs.
Right.
Like some of those out of print bootlegs would come out and they come out on seven inches rather than LPs. Yeah. I just thought it would be, I just thought it would be cooler. It is super cool.
It is super cool.
I like the whole idea of the gatefold. I like the idea of, you know, using that, that iconic image on the front and, I think I was just trying to be creative and think out of the box. Just another boring LP? No, let's do it as a double 7-inch.
Was it hard to track that stuff down at that time?
This is the funny thing. It was right around that same time period where I was... Dave Mello, who was the bass player in Uniform Choice... was actually my right-hand man, like my assistant. There was a short period after Golden Voice when I worked for this other company, and Dave Mello was my assistant. And this one time, I forget, for whatever reason, I was at his house, and I went in the closet, and there's these wheels, for the Uniform Choice demo. I was like, you have the reel for that?
He was like, yeah. And, like, of course, my light bulb went off, and he was like, well, we should release that. That's never been released on a record, you know, and so I was able to. I was very lucky.
That's so rad. And then how did you feel, like, I think maybe five years ago, they, like... There was, like, an even more original Uniform Choice demo that came out, like, before Dubar sang?
Oh, you know, I did hear something about that. Like, yeah, the pre-Dubar recording. Yeah, I don't know.
They're, like, a totally different band, though, right?
Yeah, yeah, it's a totally different band. It's not like... not the uniform choice you want to remember. I don't know, in my opinion.
Can you speak a little bit on them? Because I'm always kind of curious. What was their impact? Coming out the gate, do they do a demo and they blow up and they're super influential or are they influential after Screaming for Change comes out? Can you just speak on that band a little bit?
I can say that they put on a really good live show and I think And they toured quite a bit. And they had those aspirations of wanting to be a big band. But as far as doing the demo and blowing up, I don't know what point. I think it probably had more to do with me putting them on good shows. Like I put them on some Olympic auditorium shows, some good Fender shows. I think the combination of they had good songs and they had a good live show, I think that just built it up.
Yeah, and were they, did they have to take a lot of shit or were they like kind of universally loved? Because they are a pretty direct-in-your-face band and playing some mixed punk shows, you could see how they could stand out.
Yeah, no, they didn't really have any trouble. They were, I mean, Dubar was big. imposing physical presence. Um, Pat Dyson was a big, like both those guys are like guys that probably could have had college careers in baseball and football, you know, or they, they, they weren't like to be taken lightly. Like they would, they would, you swung on them. They're going to swing back. Right. So, and, and Vic wasn't small either.
And the only small ones would have been Dave and, there was more than enough to back him up.
Sure. Yeah, so cool. You do a 7-inch for a band called Fishwife, and that just stands out. One of my best friends is this guy named Micah, and he works at a restaurant in Portland called The Fishwife. Oh, wow. I just got to ask about this band. What are they all about? This has been on my Discogs want list forever, but I'm waiting to buy it for a dollar or two.
Oh, right, right. I wish I had an extra copy. I'd just give it to you, but I don't think I do.
I'll get it eventually.
Yeah. I'll look through my stuff. There's a couple records that I have doubled them. If I have one, I'll send it to you. But Fish Wife is part of the San Diego scene, which this was me in my head thinking, well, Seattle is blowing up. Well, San Diego's got a good scene, too. I'm going to help San Diego blow up. So I started putting out these bands like Pitchfork, who turned into Rocket from the Crypt, you know, and all that. And then bands like Fish Wife was just friends of those guys.
So it was basically a... Actually, what's the band now with the guys from Rocket? It's called... God dang
it.
I
would never be able to tell you.
I'm just drawing a blank on it. But it's the band who is now... It's basically two guys from Pitchfork. It's Rick and John from Pitchfork with Gar, who I think was in Fishwise.
Okay, that's cool. So someone from Fishwife is still active. That rules. Yeah, yeah. That rules. Now, you do have your Sympathy for the Record industry White Stripe 7-inch in 1990 because you do a super early Brujeria record.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How cool is that? You do Brujeria de Monaco in 1990.
That was just cool because the... The guy who gave it to me, like, I don't think I even listened to it. I don't even think I... I just said, yeah, you're doing it? Yeah, I'll put it out. Like, sight unseen. Same thing with chorus. You know, I didn't have to hear a song. I just, like, I knew if Banks and Isaac were going to do it together, it was going to be good.
Right. When I was going through your catalog, I was like, what? Is it the same band? Oh, okay. It is. What the fuck? Super cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were so funny because people really thought that they were Mexican drug lords. They were really made up. It wasn't this fake band. It was this Mexican, like, death metal band or something. Right.
Yeah, so cool.
I even had Steve Albini. You know Steve Albini? Of course. Yeah, yeah. He called me out of the blue one night. He's like, what's the deal with Brujahia? Like, are those real guys, or are they just people? Like, I get a random phone call in the middle of the night from Steve Albini asking me questions about Brujahia.
that just makes doing all of nemesis totally worth it right there
yeah it's pretty
pretty random and bizarre yeah so cool um another one i plucked out was i love the the iceman cometh seven inch um just just for chokes banter alone all the seven inch like you capturing that when he was like yeah all these old men like cleared you out of the pit i don't remember what he says but something like that so good yeah yeah um yeah how good was slap shot
They were, well, they were, they're amazing. They were so good. The funny thing about that show was though, it was packed. It didn't make a penny. Like it got me basically banned from the whiskey for like years because I put on a show that didn't sell alcohol.
And then like, I
had all the, all the stage diving and, you know, craziness. They didn't want to deal with that. So I kind of, I kind of put one over on them and, and I paid the price actually for, for doing it. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. I got a good seven inch out of it, but I, I, uh, actually that was the beginning of the end of the promoter I was working with too.
Yeah. I would, I would argue great seven inch. I think it's, it's fucking awesome. I mean, it's just what we've done on some of these seven inch comps is like just capture a snapshot in time. Um, and I, I wish I could have
done more.
Yeah. I mean, you're, you're curating these things is insane because all, all the bands actually really stand the test of time. You know, like normally when you look at comps, it's like, you know, half the bands have some merit and half the bands it's like, well, you know, they were something, you know, but like, it's like when you do these seven inch comps, it's like literally all bangers, you know, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, 91 you do chorus.
uh, the truth gives wings to strength LP as well as the, uh, the chorus seven inch. Um, how was this band received when they came out?
Um, fairly, I, I think in the beginning, I did. That depends on who you talk to.
Um,
I've read interviews with Isaac where he says that Epitaph was after him and stuff. For some reason, they decided to go with me. I don't know. I don't think there was like that. It's hard for me to judge, honestly. They were popular. I think they were more popular later, though. I think they, like... It's hard for me to have a clear picture in my head of... It's funny, because I just... I just remembered trying really hard to put out the records and was really excited about it.
And, yeah, now I can remember. Now it just came to me. There was a show at Toe Jam... with chorus and that was just insanity packed room not that big you know hundreds and 200 tops but like everybody singing the words and just like really into it
yeah do you does any of this stuff like make you feel really good like when you see like a room like that even if it's just 200 people I mean that's a lot of fucking people if you think about it like if there's 200 people motivated to like pack up and sing along. And you know, you're, you're the guy that made this happen.
Maybe they would have had the record come out somewhere else, but maybe it wouldn't have been as big, you know, like you, you are part of the catalyst of what makes this happen. Like, does that ever sink in? And, and how does it make you feel if anything?
Um, I'd never really thought about it like that. I just, I don't know. I, I just did what I did at a time when it seemed like it needed to be done.
Yeah.
And, It's nice to look back. When Patrick from Reaper Records wanted to put out my book, I was flattered because I liked Reaper Records. I liked Reaper Records before I ever met Patrick or even knew him. The fact that he says my label influenced his label... I was like, whoa, well, that's a compliment. That was like the first time I'd really thought about it in probably 10 years. You know what I mean?
Sure. Yeah, well, he has great taste. I mean, almost everything he puts out is insane. Yeah, I agree. The last one that I plucked out that I love, I absolutely love this LP, is the Billingsgate No Apologies LP.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
How did that come about? Because they were Chicago, not Minneapolis, correct?
Yeah, they were Chicago. That was when I was trying to get a band from every major city.
Sure.
And I don't think I ever got a New York City band. I should have, if I would, it just makes me mad because I could have released that. There was a live agnostic front show that I put on, and I should have released that as a 7-inch, because that would have been a really good one. Oh, getting back to Billingsgate. I had heard the 7-inch, I think, was on Victory. Yes. Yeah, and I thought that was a great 7-inch. And so I reached out to them.
Do you want to do a record... I think I, yeah, I'm pretty sure I reached out to them and asked them if they wanted to do it. I don't know if I asked them if they wanted to do an LP or, but I think I reached out to them and it just, it just kind of blossomed.
Yeah. I love this record. It's like, I like the seven inch. Okay. But then this LP, like they really lean into like that verbal assaulty style.
yeah yeah i really like that early verbal assaulty style too i mean probably you can tell by the bands i was releasing like with reason to believe and you know that had like that melody you know
sure yeah but like not not glossy but like they do have that melody yeah yeah yeah good yeah and you know billingsgate a couple of those guys they went on uh to do the band dillinger four they're actually like my favorite band
Oh, I did not know that.
Yeah, I think it's two of the guys. They're in Dillinger 4 still to this day.
Oh, wow. That's awesome
to know. And that band rips. They kill it. They're my favorite band legitimately. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Is there any records that stand out for you that you think that I didn't touch on?
The only ones I could think of were... I did... Hunger Farm, which really wasn't a hardcore record. It was more of an alternative sounding. And I thought they had great promise. But it's just a case of the right place at the right time. And some of these people had vices that got the better of them. And it just doesn't work out.
Where were they from?
I also thought Point Blank.
Okay.
Point Blank, who was on the East, East, West show. Sure. And they turned it to Bonesaw. Okay. I thought they were amazing. They were so good. They were so good at that East, East, West show. They brought like, somebody worked at a toy store and they got like cases of Madballs. You remember Madballs? Yeah,
yeah,
the toy. They had like cases of them. And they started a mad ball fight during the show at that East East West show in Louisiana. It was so crazy. And their singer, Chris, was just a really underrated singer. They were an underrated band, I thought.
I'll revisit that. I'll revisit that. Yeah. That's
so cool. Start with Point Blank, though. Okay. They're a good band.
Cool.
Yeah.
What happened? Why does Nemesis end?
Nemesis ended because I couldn't get the distribution to pay me what they owed me. I wanted to go completely independent.
I realized when I first started, I had distribution with this guy, Kane, and he helped me acquire relationships with recording studios and manufacturing studios studios and whatnot but then when he moved to Cargo he kind of like sold his soul to I don't know that he sold his soul but you know he moved on to a corporation where he couldn't his decision wasn't the final say like it had to run through another bunch of filters and these people didn't like me for some reason I was like I've got this
label that you know, I think is worthwhile and I want to do a lot more, but you guys got to be up front with me. And they just, they just never were. And, you know, I mean, I just, I was, yeah, I wasn't the smartest businessman. I had no business savvy. You know, it was never, I didn't start out with Nemesis to try and build a corporation. I just wanted to put out my friend's band. And then I got some ideas about, well, if I'm gonna keep doing this, maybe I can do this and this.
And I tried a few different things. But when I lost control and I just couldn't get what I felt I was owed to break free, then I just, at the same time, I was starting to, I was tattooing. And I just acquired an apprenticeship with a really well-known tattooer. And, uh, so then I just kind of let the label go.
Yeah. That's what I was going to ask is if that was a smooth transition or of like when, when you started your tattooing career, did you start doing stuff like before Nemesis ended? And have you always been way into doing art? Cause you're not just a tattooer, you do paintings and so forth as well.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I've, I've, I've always liked, I've always liked dabbling, you know, but, um, obviously once, you know, you start tattooing, you're, you're drawing all the time. So I just had to take it to a much more serious level.
Yeah. And, and what was that like? Um, kind of like transitioning out from
being sweet.
Yeah. Cause you go from being fully immersed in music to, to kind of like, to do an apprenticeship. Like is it, it's like an internship. You're starting from scratch in a new, new field.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and you know, I was kind of, uh, I kind of let the music go for a couple of years. Well, I had to, cause you know, you have to kind of dedicate all your time to learning what you're learning, your craft and what you're doing.
So sure. You have to fully immerse into that, but that's one of the, you know, But that's one of the great things about you, though, Frank, is, you know, I don't know you personally, but when people talk about you, one of the good things that people always say is he's someone that never, like, stopped loving hardcore, you know? So, like, maybe in your head you think you stepped away from it for a couple years, but you weren't, like, someone that was, you weren't a tourist and dropped out.
No, no, no, I didn't, yeah. I just meant I just, like, I just didn't go to shows for... actually I did go to shows, but you know, I just, I would just kind of, you know, I wasn't as involved, you know, I went from being fully involved in almost every aspect of a scene to just kind of hanging out. And that was okay. Yeah. I was okay with that.
Yeah. So you really took the tattooing though. And, and you've been doing it since. What is like the most satisfying part of that?
Um, the most satisfied part of it is when you get someone that you don't, you've never maybe met before and you guys just vibe on every level from the idea he has to your execution of it to, you know, like making a friend, like going from not knowing somebody to making someone a friend. You know, I don't know. I think that's, You know, really being able to do what I know I'm capable of doing, too. You know, really not trying to hold me back. You know, just, like, believing in my vision.
Yeah, so cool. Yeah, I mean, I've loved all my tattoo artists, like, to a man. You know, so... Yeah. It's an interesting relationship, right? It's, like, kind of... it's kind of like a lot of your best friends, you know, that you don't have to talk to for a long time. And, but there's always like a weird connection, you know? Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. Super
cool. Especially now with social media and you know, you know, you can reach out to pretty much anybody you want to.
Yeah. A little easier to stay in touch. Yeah. Yeah. So is there anything that you think I missed Frank or do you feel pretty good about this?
No, I'm fine with this. If you're fine with it, I'm good with it.
No, I love it. I think you did a great job of, like, painting a picture of, like, the early days. And I wanted to nerd out and speak on some of this Nemesis stuff that I love. And I think you did
it. Oh, I'm really glad you loved it. I mean, that's what I like hearing now is, like, how many people did like what I did. Because at the time, like... I was all over the place. I mean, you know, when you look back, I mean, my musical taste was here, there and everywhere, you know what I mean? And it probably would have gotten stranger if I would have kept going.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I would, I mean,
I even released a comic book. I released a comic book on Nemesis.
Oh, that's so cool.
It's so bizarre and random.
Yeah. No, I mean like the, the curation of the stuff that you did is cause I missed it. Obviously. So like, you know, when someone can discover a catalog years after you've stopped doing it and really appreciate and love a lot of like these pieces that you did, I mean, you were able to curate timeless music and, uh, yeah, I think that that's like, that should be the point of the label, right?
Like that's why, you know, rev catalogs and, and, and different labels, discord, of course, BYO, like these labels are timeless because they, they chose the right bands that never get old. Yeah. Well, I
mean, I was lucky, I think, in a lot of respects, too. But I do think there was intelligence behind my luck. It wasn't total luck.
It can't be total luck. Anyway. No. I mean, at least you were warm enough to be able to make friendships with people that were talented and creative. And you have the wherewithal to see a project through. A lot of people can't do that.
That's true. It's very true.
Yeah.
I've been in my share of bands and I couldn't get past one or two
rehearsals. But you, you got a record out. You got a record out of one of your bands.
Yeah. Yeah. At least I did do that.
Yeah. So that's rad. But yeah, I really appreciate your time, Frank. Oh, no problem. Do you feel like you've been well represented?
Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's all good.
Cool. Yeah. All right. So I really appreciate your time and thanks so much.
All right, man. It was good talking to you. I'll look for that Fishwise record. If I find it, I will text you or call you and get your address and mail it to you.
Appreciate it. But then I'm going to just send it to my friend Micah, so you might want to just cut me out.
All right.
Yeah, man. Okay, I'll talk to you soon.
All right. Take care.
All right. Bye-bye.
Bye.