What's up, everyone? Start off with him getting into hardcore and go through him doing a fanzine and then him doing a record label. And I pluck out a bunch of releases through his catalog and we talk about them. So this is pretty rad. I hope you enjoy it. Please support the podcast by subscribing to it wherever you listen, on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or wherever. Please also give it a like and rate it and review it. Again, wherever you listen to the podcast.
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185 miles south. A hardcore punk rock podcast.
What's up, everyone? This week on the pod, I have Dave Mandel of Indecision Records fame. How are you doing, Dave? I'm doing good. Awesome. And yeah, we're going newer school. I could have tried to be the cool guy and said Indecision fanzine, but I only know what I know. We've
moved past that.
Yeah. Anyone that listens to the Pod Weekly knows we had Dave on for one of the questions episodes with Daniel. And we talked about your origin story a little bit there. But for the sake of being a completionist, can you say how you got into punk and hardcore?
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's a pretty standard story amongst most people, at least maybe people of my age group. I got into skateboarding first. Punk rock was like kind of something that was secondary, kind of came along with skateboarding for me. And to be perfectly honest, it wasn't, I didn't have that like, you know, come to Jesus moment where I was like, punk rock is my life. Like skateboarding was definitely my life.
And through that, just, you know, reading Thrasher magazine and seeing all these punk bands, like I'd listen to them because that's what skateboarders listen to. And at some point, I couldn't really tell you when, it just kind of flip-flopped for me. Not that I ever got over skateboarding, but punk rock became the primary and skateboarding the secondary. Probably sometime in the late 80s or so is really when it kicked in for me.
And even though I listened to music, there's a difference between listening to punk rock bands and And then kind of really absorbing yourself into the culture of punk rock. And I feel like it took me maybe a little bit longer than some people in that sense. Like skateboarding, like I said, that was the culture that I fell in love with first. And punk rock was kind of like my secondary. But that is not the case anymore. I'm all punk rock. I love it. Hardcore. I love it, man.
Yeah, you know, we never knew that you were like a... Because, you know, everyone skateboards, right? But you never know, like, if someone's good or not. And I remember you came over to our house in South Oxnard in, like, 04 when we had the halfpipe in our backyard. And, like, you just went on it and totally shredded. We're like, what the fuck? Dave Vandos is really good at skateboarding. What the fuck? You know?
Yeah, even at the Indecision Hotel, which was – We were in there from like 97, I think, to 2002, if I remember correctly. It was about five years, but we had a skateboard ramp there too.
Did you have a full half pipe?
Yeah, it was a half pipe. I mean, it was a mini ramp. It wasn't like an eight foot or anything, but it was probably like a four or five foot mini.
Yeah, I think ours was only like four feet long. Some four or five feet.
Perfect. It's the perfect size, especially at this point in my life. I'm not looking to do anything big. I feel like I don't recover quite the same way from a fall.
Yeah, well, I only tried to drop in once and I ate my dick, so that was a wrap. But you got to try. Shit. You got to just drop in and hope for magic. Like, maybe I can do this. Nope. But yeah. So what was a band that connected you from being like a... observer and a listener of the music to wanting to get more involved?
As far as getting involved, there's definitely trigger bands that I had for me. The first time I heard Minor Threat, that was kind of like an advancement in level. This is what I want to be a part of. But as far as actually being involved in the scene, which is what I think you're kind of angling towards, it was... It was really bands like Youth of Today. That was a big one for me.
And I mean, I know that they're still around playing and maybe in some sense have kind of maybe taken the shine off their name a little bit in that sense because there's not really any mystery about them. But when Break Down the Walls came out, that was a game changer for me. That was, I want to go to shows every single weekend for the rest of my life. That was the band for me.
But I mean, that's not like the first band that I fell in love with, but I feel like that was, maybe it's also just like the timing of how old I was at the time, you know, driver's license, things like that. Like all those things kind of rolling in a big ball together kind of made that the moment where I really kind of immersed myself culturally, more than just like going to a show here and there. Like it was, I'm a part of this.
Yeah. When was the first time that you got to see them?
Uh, the first time I got to see them was after break down the walls, obviously, uh, man, probably when they still had Craig in the band. So that, I don't know if that was the break down the walls tour, uh, or if it was later, but I, I had only seen them a couple of times, uh, that show. And then they played a show that Ryan Hoffman put on in Pomona, uh, the following year. Uh, at the Yesteryear's Club. That's the only two times I ever actually saw them as back in the day.
I mean, I've seen them as a reformed band.
What was the club that you said was the first time you saw them? Fender's Ballroom in Long Beach. Oh, Jesus. So that's fucking epic.
Yeah, man, I only went there a handful of times. That was a pretty long trek for me to make it out there. Um, and that was before I had a driver's license. Um, once I got my driver's license, it didn't, I mean, we, we went everywhere. We, we drive up to Gilman and, you know, drop of a hat.
Yeah. With, with so much like riding on, on, uh, youth of today, like is them being the band that you really connected with? How, how did that show deliver for you?
Um, it was, it was pretty surreal. Um, It was also kind of still in an era for me where I was... I'm trying to think of a good adjective here because it wasn't fear or anything like that, but shows still felt scary. So they were kind of overwhelming. So I'm sure I remember the show maybe with a little bit more pizzazz than what it actually was. I mean, you might ask the band, they're like, eh, it was kind of like a so-so show. But for me, I couldn't believe it. It was... So exciting.
Yeah. I can't imagine how good they would have been in their prime. I mean, I just, I think the first time I saw Ray perform live was when they were doing like, no, it would have been, I think the second time because I saw better than a thousand of the showcase before. And then I think they came out on like that second rev tour. And I just remember seeing him at the whiskey and it was like, he was doing like a headstand on like one of the speakers, like five seconds into their set.
I was like, Jesus Christ, this guy's an entertainer. I can't imagine what he would have been like in his prime.
He was one of the most exciting front men. And I think he's still great. He's still great.
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I saw him last year and thoroughly loved it. But still, jelly of you getting to see him in their prime. I wish... Yeah, whatever. Anyway, so when do you start doing a fanzine?
I had started doing a fanzine with a buddy of mine, Ryan, that I went to high school with. He was like a real shepherd for me into those late 80s, because he seemed to know a lot more of the bands already, and he was kind of like an encyclopedia for me. But he actually did the first issue of Indecision with me. We were doing a fanzine before that that just didn't materialize. And then the first issue of Indecision, I think we started in, like, early or the middle of 1990.
I think it was early 1990. And then I think we got the zine out, like, either the end of that year or very beginning of 1991. But it was something, like, honestly, I did a fanzine because I had so many pen pals that I would go through, like, the classifieds in Maximum Rock and Roll every month. And I would go through, like, And anyone who posted something, it didn't matter what it was. I got t-shirts for trade or I have a fanzine I'm selling for a dollar. I would write everybody.
That was a big part of the culture for me was getting mail from all over the world. And a fanzine was kind of a thing that helped me be a contributor in that community.
Yeah, I would have barely caught the tail end of that because I remember... being young and like in the back of MRR people would like have the little classified with like their record wants and so forth yeah super cool definitely
I mean I was the kind of goober that would like I would write some of those people if I didn't even know the record you know I'm just like tell me about this record and people would write you back you know like what you've never heard the YDI 7 inch you know like and then explain it to me it's important why I should want it You know, that's insane.
Yeah, well, I mean, if you think of just how much time we waste like on our phones now, like unnecessarily checking social media or playing Candy Crush or whatever the fuck, you know, it's like that stuff is way more constructive and way more entertaining. Like I would rather, you know, I mean, that's why I enjoy doing this podcast. I like to talk about hardcore music.
You know, it's no different than wanting to correspond with another like-minded person when you don't have that many people to talk to about it. you know, and even on this platform where there are a fair amount of people, it's like, it's still super niche, you know, like this, this genre of music.
Yeah.
So how many issues do you do of indecision?
I did five full issues. And then I think, I think there was either two or three like half issues that were, you know, basically like a, uh, an 11 by 17 sheet of paper, like folded up, you know, like one little, like, I mean, a glorified flyer, which I had actually gotten the idea from Fred Hammer of because he had done a little newsletter called, like, Bethink, I think it was called. Does that ring any bell with you? But he did, like, a little newsletter that wasn't, like, It's Alive.
I'm not really sure why. I might be remembering that incorrectly, but... for some reason I feel like I remember that. And I, so like indecision, like in between, I don't know, like issue two and three or three and four or something like that. Like I would do like a little half scene. Cause I mean, they didn't come out very often. I mean, it was basically like a year end yearbook, you know, I'd do them like once a year.
Sure. Yeah. Much later in the, in the mid nineties, he did like a little newsletter called localism that was like, If I remember right, it would be like an 11 by 17, maybe just folded. So it would be a four pager. But yeah, I don't really remember that well. So in 92, you decide to make the jump and actually put a record out. What was the impetus of that? Was it just like you were bros of the band and it was the right time?
Or had you been wanting to do a record for a while and now you found the right project?
Yeah.
I don't think I really put out a record because I wanted to do a record label. I kind of feel like I wanted to do a record label after I had done a record is when I really realized how much I enjoyed it. But as far as the first record, the path to that's existence was that Strife had recorded a 7-inch for New Age. And this was at a time where Mike was super busy. I mean, I want to say it all within a month of each other, two months of each other.
Strife had recorded an EP, Mean Season had recorded an EP, Unbroken recorded an EP, Outspoken recorded the LP, and various other things that he had kind of going in the works. And their record was either going to get pushed back for a while, and I mean, they had been playing on a demo for... a while. They really wanted to have a record out. And Mike kind of told them that it might not come out as quickly as you're hoping it's going to.
And then I know at some point there was talk about it possibly even being a cassette single. That was a popular thing at the time. Outspoken had done one. Conversion had done ones with Stone Telling. Integrity had a cassette single. So it was kind of like in the scene, people were doing these cassette singles. And I think there was some disappointment even in the idea of, with the band, Strife being a cassette single. It ended up not turning out that way, so it didn't really matter.
But Sid Neeson, their drummer, asked me, he said, hey, would you be into helping me put out our own 7-inch? I was like, yeah, of course, I'd love to do it. So we quickly went into the studio and recorded at the same studio that the Outspoken LP, the Mean Season 7, the Unbroken were all recorded at, which was a terrible studio looking back. Legendarily terrible recordings. But it was cheap and it was quick and we could get it done.
And then at some point throughout the process, Sid kind of went to me and he's like, you know, it feels like you kind of want to take the reins on this and kind of do it on your own. I was like, I kind of do. I don't want that to bum you out. And he's like, no, I don't want to run a record label. You know, I... I want you to do it. So he kind of like pushed me into that direction.
You know, he kind of gave me the project to do, helped me get it started and then kind of, you know, be on your own, go do this. And then after that I was hooked. I was like, I love this. It's even with the fancy and it was always something I did. Cause I just, I want to be involved. I'm not, I'm not really musically talented and I have, I have no problem being, you know, somebody in the back helping things get done. And record label offered me that opportunity.
Yeah. Can you, can you compare the satisfaction of, of like finishing a zine and having it out compared to like, uh, having some of those early seven inches finished and coming out? Um,
I don't know if I would say like one feels better than the other.
Um, but that first time you actually get that record done, in your hands is pretty special with like a fanzine you know you're doing layouts you know while you're making this so you already have like a visual of this is what it looks like you know with a record that's not the case you know you're turning in artwork and at that time I was doing paced up artwork and then we'd like shoot it with the camera to make the film we were pre like computer layouts for it um so there was a little bit of
that mystery but uh or not mystery, I should say, but to, to get that record the first time, I mean, even today, like, you know, I mean, I'm what, almost 30 years into indecision. And whenever I get that record, I'm so excited to like rip that shrink wrap off and look at it. Yeah. It's exciting still like that, that, that, that buzz hasn't gone away.
And there's a real, real sense of, of, of accomplishment with it because it's a lot of little things that have to happen for that thing to come out.
Yeah. And there's also like the, it's like a, it's a staggered satisfaction and excitement too. Cause like that excitement of getting the test presses is really cool too. And also the nervousness of playing it the first time.
Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. There's definitely like a sense of accomplishment only because yeah, like you said, it's, it's, it's a step-by-step journey. So by the time you get to the end and it's holding your hand and that journey's over, there's definitely like a huge sense of relief and accomplishment.
Yeah, I love it. And I like how you said it, like it just never gets old. It never does. It never does. You
know, I mean, I know, you know, that's maybe not the experience that, you know, everyone that's done a record label has had, you know, but as far as I'm concerned, if that's not your experience at the end of that little journey for each record, then you're doing the wrong thing. You got to go do something else.
Yeah, for sure. What is the story behind the Mandel Kansaki cover?
So like you said, things got put together staggered. So we got the recording done, and we knew that we needed to get labels done so that we could turn it into the pressing plant. And then we'd get covers made, and we'll put it all together.
So things got done in very... long steps so the record was done it was turned in we had test presses it was approved and it went to the plant and you know the pressing times weren't quick but better than the turnaround than vinyl's been in the last you know five years or so and we got records and kind of realized like oh we've we haven't finished a layout for the cover I had done a back cover and But we still hadn't had a front cover. We weren't sure what we wanted to put on it.
And Andrew suggested, he's like, well, we want something we could, you know, sell at shows. So I said, okay, well, there's 200 on green. We'll just make a different cover for the green one. And, you know, we're not really sure. Let's just find a photo and we'll just put it and Xerox copy them. And Andrew's like, okay, we should call it Mandel Can Suck It. And I kind of laughed at the idea. So, I mean, it wasn't—I mean, it's a little bit of a jab at me for not getting that cover done in time.
But, you know, it was all done in good faith. It might have been Sid that came up with that idea, but for some reason I feel like it was Andrew. But, yeah, it was a playful jab. I mean, I sold them, you know? Like, I mail-ordered those things. So it's not something that was bothering me.
Yeah, and for the people listening, it's obviously a playoff— Off the judge.
The Chungking can suck it, yeah. And right around that time, Jamie Billig, old Santa Barbara scene-ster, had put out a 10-inch bootleg of Chungking Can Suck It called Revelation Can Suck It. And then Unit Pride, there was an alternate cover of them that said Jason Bush could suck it. So it was kind of like... I don't know, a meme before memes existed.
Yeah, inside hardcore joke. So before we jump kind of into the catalog here, I'd like you to kind of go into... Okay, so Strife wanted a 7-inch out so bad. Can you kind of explain how big of a deal it was for a band to get a record out? Because I remember even doing my first record, The Voice of Defiance 7-inch, like how... Big of a deal, like, it felt to be on final. Like, it was, like, a... Because it's a harder barrier of injury. Like, back then, it was kind of...
It was a little harder to put a 7-inch out, I think, because, you know, now you can go to one place and they can take care of everything for you. I remember how daunting it was, like, doing the first 7-inch. Like, okay, you got to record it somewhere.
They put it on this, like... format that you've never seen before that you can't listen to you got to turn that in somewhere you got to get a different guy to master it for vinyl you got to get labels somewhere else you got to get your cover somewhere else like all these things and hope that they all tie together and get sent to the plant so it was like kind of a wild process but it was a big deal to get put on the vinyl don't you think that's why strife wanted it so bad compared to like a tape
oh for sure
and maybe it's not the case now because now it feels like You know, vinyl might just be like, oh, that's a product, something for us to sell on Bandcamp, you know. But what we really want to do is get our stuff onto streaming platforms or whatever it might be in like, you know, a modern Noma clencher. But having a record, you know, even then, you know, in the early 90s felt like a big accomplishment that not every band could do. So it was kind of like a little bit of a separator.
Every band could do a demo tape, you know. That's... There's no barrier of entry there. But to actually have a record that you or someone else actually has to spend a bunch of money to get done, that's a much bigger deal. And they love records, too. And to be able to have a record that's you on there playing, it seemed insane back then. Back then. I mean, for us at that age, people were making records forever.
But for us at... you know, at the end of our teens, like that was still like a, a huge wow moment to be able to be on a record. Cause that's something that they could take to their parents going, look, look, I'm, we're in a band that we did a record.
Yeah. You can show your grandma, you know, it's like, it's impressive. Cause it's like, that's how, that's how music was taken at the time. I mean, by then there's CDs and there's tapes, but like you said, like, it's just, I don't know. It was a little, there's a lot more goes into putting out a record or a CD. CD is big too. at the time. But yeah, super, super cool. I wanted to talk about the Blackout 7-inch because that must have been pretty rad for you to do because you're a big Blast fan.
How did that come about? Did you reach out to them or what was going on with them at the time?
They had done a couple of Blast demos without Cliff. And I was living in New Jersey at the time and And I was talking on the phone with Fred Hammer. Sorry. And we were talking about, like, what's Blast doing? You know, I mean, that's a worship band for me. They could literally record feedback and I would have put it out. You know, there was not much in the way of, like, real expectations. I was just excited to be a part of anything with those guys. And Fred said that, yeah, Mike has a band.
I mean, it's that same Blast band, but they changed the name to Blackout. And they're looking for someone to help them do a 7-inch. And so really Fred was the middleman that kind of brought that to me. And I was just like, yeah, I'm in. I'm absolutely in. And I had been planning on moving back to California anyways. But that was honestly something that kind of lit the fire under me. Like, yeah, I need to be back in California. I need to, you know, this like East Coast vacation is done for me.
It's time for me to get back home and start working on stuff. But it was... It was pretty exciting. And it was really exciting too. Um, after the record came out, uh, they played a show in, uh, it's the little town just outside of Palm Springs. Can't remember what it's called. Um, but for some reason they got like a show there and they said, Hey, we're going to drive down from Santa Cruz for this show. We're going to stop in Huntington beach, pick you up and take you to the show.
And like, even just like riding in the van, you know, like, uh, oh my God, I'm like with the guys from blast, you know, like, and they're seriously some of the most awesome dudes. And like, we, we were driving along and we saw like a, a skate ramp on the side of the road. They're like, oh, we should have brought our boards. And I kind of like looked at him like we should, we should have, why didn't we bring our boards? I was so, so fricking excited. You know, it was, it was so awesome.
Um, but yeah, that band was just untouchable for me. And, and I feel like they're a band, like mostly for people. I think that, didn't have like a local connection to them. Um, when people like try to write them off as like, Oh, they were doing the black flag thing, but like, no, screw that. They, they were doing black flag better than black flag could do black flag. I, they were untouchable, untouchable, but it was, it was pretty exciting for me.
Cause even that, that's, that record is probably like two years almost after the strife seven inch. It wasn't like back to back. So I'd kind of put out that strife record and, And it was kind of like, okay, I did it. The idea of running a record label wasn't even an idea yet. It wasn't until the Blackout thing happened that I went like, oh, this is now a series. This is a catalog. It's only two records, but it's not just helping to put out my friend's band.
Yeah, and that gives you a certain amount of confidence because there's a certain level of of acting professional you have to do when it's not your friend's band. You know, like a little more pressure. But yeah, I love that 7-inch. I think it's rad. And that's funny that you bring up them playing like a town out of Palm Springs because they always ended up kind of playing random spots. I remember when they were doing the band Lab. That's like the only time I ever went to a show in San Clemente.
That was the same.
Lab was the same band. It was Blackout.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They changed the name again. So it was Life After Blackout or Life After Blast?
I think it was Life After Blast, but yeah, it was basically Blackout. I think there might have been another band called Blackout, and they just didn't want to deal with it. I might be remembering that incorrectly, but I feel like that was the way it played out.
Yeah, both those 7 Inches are sick. I love them. So you do the Collateral Damage 7 Inch, and this is... I love Collateral Damage. I think that they're one of the most underrated... bands, at least California in the nineties, you do this, the first seven inch does new age as a second one, or is that vice versa?
Yes. New age is the second one. And then there's definitely a story there, but yeah, I did the, that was right after I moved to orange County. And, uh, I was, I hung out with Chris Loman a lot, uh, when I first moved out there and he, he basically brought the project to me. He's like, Hey, I'm doing a, a band or I'm going to sing. And, uh, I want you to put it out. I was like, okay, let's do it.
I mean, he didn't really, he was the band, you know, he basically just got friends to be like, okay, you're going to be the guitar player. You're going to be the bass player. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, uh, Papa from far side was playing drums, you know, like it's, it's, it's an odd mix. Like when you think of what collateral damage ended up being later, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. That's super cool. I mean, their best song is, is the next thing I want to talk about, which is the, the comp you put together. Um, yeah. I think it's the best song on the comp. The Redemption 87 song is very close. But the, you told me to hold. So good. You know, just the way it comes in. What's the idea for doing a comp? And how daunting was it putting it together?
It actually changed forms a couple times. The idea for doing the comp was, I don't think I was ready at that point to like, commit to like doing, or not even commit, taking the responsibility, uh, for doing a band's full length release. That seemed like such a, a huge jump from, from doing the seven inches that I was doing. Um, so I, I thought a comp would be a great way to kind of ease my way in as my first 12 inch release. And, uh, originally it was just going to be a comp.
I talked to a few bands that said no, uh, and a few bands that were, uh, uh, down to do it um and then kind of as i started kind of looking for oh you know like i said oh you're doing a comp hey do you have space for us it ended up being so many local bands that it's like the three or four out-of-state bands i don't know kind of almost felt out of place at that point and uh that's kind of when i switch it to being like a california comp um And there was a lot of stuff going on at the time.
So I thought it was a good moment in time for me to do that. It's a good snapshot of what the scene locally at least looked like in 1995. But there was no special intention behind it besides me really wanting to do an LP version record, but not having the, what I thought was going to be a huge responsibility of handling someone's full length.
Yeah. It is such an interesting snapshot and what a strange time. I mean, like the, the sounds are just all over the place. It's pretty crazy.
I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting. Cause I've, I've listened to like some of the pods that, uh, like you and, and Daniel and Stu and, uh, episode one will do. Uh, about, like, early 90s stuff. And you guys will talk about it in, like, a reverence where, like, oh, there was so much good music coming out at this time. And, like, that 1990, 91, 92, like, I actually felt the opposite at the time.
Like, you know, the late 80s had just kind of died off, which were, like, so many of the bands that I loved. Or they got really embarrassing that you didn't want to like them anymore. And there kind of was nothing to, like, take its place. So you kind of had all these people from hardcore bands not wanting to do the... They kind of, you know, by the numbers, hardcore. So they kind of tried to branch out. Some of them were complete and total failures. Some of them, I think, were a little magical.
But, I mean, it's not like the scene was at an all-time high at that time. I didn't really listen to a lot of mainstream stuff. So, you know, like a lot of the big radio bands, I really knew nothing about. I was tuned out. I only listened to hardcore music. But I kind of feel like it's an interesting area because I feel like it was a rebirth area. The only people that were really still around in those early 90s are people that really wanted to be involved in hardcore.
You know, anyone that was there because it was like the thing you do with my other high school friends, like they were all gone. You know, so it kind of felt like, you know, all the real people were there still.
Yeah, that's cool. I mean, because you grab a lot of like the weird stuff, but then you still have... Ignite, Redemption 87, Claral Damage. And the song that stood out to me, and I remember hating this band, was the Parade's End song. I just listened to this comp again, and I fucking love that song. And I remember seeing them and just hating it. And maybe it was because I'm just closed-minded. It's a band like The Guitarist Sings, and they're playing kind of hardcore music. No.
I think the parade's end that was on the comp was not, because when it was the guitar player-singer, that was actually Jay Hansel
later on. Different type of band.
Yeah, the lineup for that comp, that was the only time that they were, it was basically that band, most of the guys from that band remain that Igby had put out with someone else singing. And they recorded two songs. So there's one other song that, um, they never put out and I didn't use it for the comp, but there was two songs in that session. Um, but that's the only time that lineup, uh, was a band. So it's kind of, kind of funny.
Cause like they did seven inches and stuff like that later, but it was essentially a completely different band.
Yeah. I just remember they were like a band that would play the pickle patch and I was like, uh, like,
They were definitely pickle patchers.
Yeah. But the song of your comp rules. And then I was totally eating crow listening to it last week. Like, fuck, this is good. I was a dick. So thanks for making me feel a little better. So yeah, one of the next things you do that is pretty important to the history in Decision Records is you do the instant 7-inch in 1996. Mm-hmm. Looking at these things in the timeline, I'm always shocked because your memory is never perfect. Oh, mine's terrible. Yeah, and the timeline of things is weird.
The Life's Halt 7-Inch came out in 98, and I always picture them in the group of the year 2000 bands, and it's like, whoa, they predate it by two years. And two years, in the scheme of a lifetime, isn't shit, but... it feels like hardcore, at least in the 90s, it feels like every year is almost a lifetime from the next one.
And looking at this instant 7-inch for 96, it's really early, and I'm thinking that maybe they don't get the credit they deserve for playing an old style of hardcore kind of in the dark time for that. It would get popular... the next year, or 97, 98. But this is a 7-inch 96, and they're playing a very straightforward style of hardcore. How did you meet these guys, and how do you feel about the 7-inch?
I actually met... Ensign's a band that I consider in two parts, at least that original lineup that's on that first 7-inch. I had met the guys in Ensign. I was visiting someone on the East Coast, and... The drummer had a house, 67 Handy Street, where they used to do shows, like, in the basement.
And we went to go see a show there, and I ended up hanging out with all those guys several times over that week that I was out there, and they gave me an Ensign demo, you know, maybe the day before I went home. And I listened to it, and it was cool. I dug it. It was really different. It did not have Tim Shaw singing. It was a different singer. But it was kind of already on my radar, like, you know, they're really good people, and it's kind of an interesting band. I like that demo.
It doesn't sound like what Ensign ended up becoming, but it was definitely something I took notice of. And then maybe the year prior to that, I had gone out selling merch with Strife on a Sick of It All tour, on the Scratch the Surface tour, and Tim Shaw was Sick of It All's roadie. And, you know, you go on a tour with somebody for a month or a month and a half or however long that tour was, you know, you kind of become friends. We kept in touch a lot after the tour was over.
And he calls me out of the blue one day and says, hey, man, I got a band I'm doing. And I was like, oh, yeah, tell me about it. He's like, it's called Ensign. I was like, wait, I saw an Ensign in New Jersey. And I was like, oh, no, I'm singing for that band. I was like, oh, that's crazy. So, like, it basically had this mishmash of two different bands.
groups of people that i had met separately uh kind of came together in this band i was like man i'm i'm interested let's do let's do it you know um but that's kind of how the band came to me it wasn't like i uh like saw them with tim and was like hey let's do it like i actually knew tim completely separate from those guys and it was actually kind of surprising i was like how does tim even know these people like they seem like very different social circles you know like Tim was hanging out with
the Alleyway Crew guys, and these guys were hanging out in basements watching Garden Variety play.
Maybe that's why they were interesting. Maybe that's why they ended up being a cool mishmash of dudes.
Yeah. It was really cool. Obviously, if you can follow from release to release, it was an ever-changing lineup, especially in those early years until they got the the, the combination that really worked for them.
Yeah. And, and so going through your catalog here, Dave, um, I'm generally picking out like the first release of bands. So if you have anything else to say on instant, you should say it before I move
on. Okay.
Um, but yeah, they, they did a, they did a full length, which was like a great, um, indecision release came out. I don't have in front of me, but probably a couple of years after the seven inch, cause they do two seven inches and then do an LP if I remember
correctly. It came out the following year. It came out in 97. The second 7-inch they did was actually because of Tim's connection to Sick of It All and a lot of those New York bands. There was a label in Japan that really wanted to put out a Japanese version of the Ensign.
ep but they didn't want to do an ep like they just it's not worth it for them to license they wanted to have like a full length worth of songs like a cd only um so we kind of after talking to them like all right they need like four more songs so they basically went and recorded four songs to be the bonus tracks on this japanese cd so that it could come out and since we'd already recorded we were just kind of like oh let's just put it out as a seven inch here like it was never in like an intended
seven inch it's just kind of by function, it ended up existing. I mean, we were, we were already like looking towards a full length by then, but that full length was a big deal for me too. That was the first, like kind of what I would consider a higher budget record that I had done.
Yeah. And what was the feeling going into that? Did he feel a lot of pressure?
A little bit because I mean, Ensign was working hard. Like they were touring a lot, uh, And, I mean, losing a lot of money, too, for both of us. But going into that full length, it was kind of like, this is going to be my first, not real record, that's not the right word to say, but kind of like my first big release, you know? I mean, they were recording at Trax East, which was kind of like the hot studio at the time.
It was more, the recording was more expensive than... anything I had done it to that point. I mean, by probably like 10 times, you know, and, you know, we got it mastered at this place and, you know, it, it, it was, it felt like we did the things that like a victory records would have done at that time, you know, and it may be something that was like, there was a little, uh, intrepidation on my part in the sense that it's just like a, a bigger thing that I'm equipped to handle.
Um, but it ended up not being the case.
Is you stepping from like kind of doing like a hobby label to like possibly doing a real contender record label?
Yeah, I mean, that record also, you know, it's not just like when you put out a seven inch, it just kind of feels like we got this seven inch out. Here you go. Let's do this with like a full length like that. There was a lot of other moving parts that we were trying to get into place. We had advertising budgets, and all the ads had to get done on a certain timeline so that they're in time for the release date.
We got to get all the tour stuff scheduled and set up, and trying to get a band that doesn't actually have their full length out yet on a decent tour is not easy. You got to hear no 30 times before you hear that one yes, and it can be daunting.
And then you've got to get the record out in time for the tour.
Yeah, exactly. And hope that you can get it into stores. Distribution is difficult. That used to be the thing that sunk everybody. I don't think that's necessarily the case for labels now. Distribution is almost kind of like the extra credit. If you get a good web presence and get streaming and all in line and all that kind of stuff, you can do stuff a little bit more on the cheap, you know, but that, that record was a, a huge, huge investment for me.
You know, it's, it's not just like, Oh, I made enough money that came in off the collateral damage seven inch that I can afford this Ensign recording. You know, that was, that was my savings. That was, that was like everything that I had earned, you know, working my job for the, like the last five years before that, you know, it was, it was, it was scary. It was, it was a commitment. It was drawing a line in the sand saying, I'm either doing this or I'm not.
Right. And in the end, did it recoup?
It did. It did. The band didn't recoup. They spent an insane amount of money on their short tenure on Indecision. But the record itself, yeah, the record itself recouped.
Yeah, that's cool. Did you feel weird when they left the label? Like, was that a thing or no?
It was pretty heartbreaking. It felt like a breakup. I mean, I know that some people can... When you hear people say things like, it's not show friendship, it's show business or something like that, it's just like the most gross things. I can't picture... And I can't put hardcore music in terms like that. I put out records by bands that I like, and people that I like, and people that I would want to hang out with, and people that I want to support.
So to have a band like Ensign leave the way they did was pretty heartbreaking, you know? We ended up, you know, the friendships were probably better for it in the long run, but it was a shock to my system a little bit. I mean, I tried to talk them out of it. I didn't think... And not being selfish, like, oh, I want you to stand in decision, but I don't think this is the right move for your band. And I didn't think it was. I think that was proved correct.
I think a lot of the hardcore community turned on him a little bit.
Yeah, what was the benefit they saw of going to Nitro? Would it just be like there's more of a budget?
Well, and also they got to kind of restart their band debt. They were really my only band when they were on Indecision, my only full-time band. So every penny I made went towards Ensign stuff. And a full-time touring band is expensive for everyone involved. And okay, we need a tour van. I bought them a tour van. Uh, the, the van's tires are bald. We need to buy new tires. I bought him new tires. Like, Hey, we need a bunch of merch for this tour. Okay. I'll get all the merch done.
Uh, and then, you know, you, you hope that maybe you'll get paid back something at the end of the tour, but they're going out as like a support, even though they're getting good tours, they're going out as a support, you know, they're getting paid a hundred bucks a show and then whatever merch they can sell, they're, they're not making enough money to, to pay off the bills for all the things that, we had to pay for going into it.
So with every tour, even though it was better for them and maybe it would make them a little, they'd get their name out a little bit more, it was just deeper and deeper into debt. And it wasn't coming back the other way. It didn't matter how many records, the record, the album sold, because it wasn't going to bring in enough money to counterbalance how much actual band debt they were building up. And... Really, the thing, I mean, there's a couple different things.
Probably it depends on who you ask in the band. But the way it really played out was the band was offered a full European tour with Sick of It All, which at the time, that's a huge tour. But the catch was Sick of It All was going to require them to share the tour bus. So on those MAD tours, we could go get our own van, pay for a driver. Uh, and it's, you know, even on like support money, like it's, it's doable, but they were gonna get support money.
Plus we were going to have to pay for half the tour bus up front. So before they even, we bought plane tickets to even get them to Europe, we were going to have to cut a check for the tour bus, which was, you know, probably 12, $13,000, which I didn't have. Like I didn't have that kind of money. I couldn't, empty out any more bank accounts. It wasn't there. I wasn't going to be able to come up with it. So this conversation we had about that where they, you know, I mean, you know how it is.
Like when you get that carrot dangle in front of your face, you feel like this might be the only opportunity. This is the only time they're ever going to ask us to go to Europe. We have to do this now. Where I was kind of like, well, let's think of something else for this first European tour and then see if Sikaval will take you next year, you know? And they felt like that they were kind of under the gun. Like it's now or never. And I was like, man, well, it's going to have to be Never.
Like, I don't know how I can do this. And they had ended up talking to someone at Nitro, not even about getting picked up or anything like that. They were just friends with them, you know, because, you know, they had done tours with AFI and that sort of stuff and a bunch of those other bands. And Nitro basically made an offer to bring them on board. And even though they had no record ready at all, they would pay for the Sick of It All European tour.
So they were just going to give them $13,000 or however much. It might have even been more than that. Right off the bat to go on this European tour, and then they would come back and do the record. So they kind of felt like that was what they had to do. And it was hard for me to kind of argue it, you know? Like, I don't have the money to say, well, I'll pay for it. If this is your only option, I guess you guys got to do what you got to do, even though it kind of bums me out.
Yeah.
I don't want to absorb that. I mean, it would have been crushing for me if, if I would have to absorb another $13,000 debt and they're already in debt up to their eyeballs. Um, and really as much of it was kind of a heartbreak that I wasn't going to do the next record. Cause I had put so much into, to pushing that band, you know, like that the next record would be the one that like, hopefully this one will pay off a little bit more.
Cause like the name's already established, you know, people be anticipating it. Um, but yeah, That's just the way it played out. No band is worth losing friendships over, so I had to kind of suck it up and understand that this is how they felt and this is what they want to do. Even if I didn't think it was the correct decision, you guys go and do it. The only caveat I had was, please just help me pay off your band debt before you do the next record with Nitro.
That was the only thing I asked, which they never did.
Yeah, that's hard. Hard to have that noodles carrot dangled in front of
you. And I kind of had a similar conversation with Death by Stereo. I don't know if that's something that you want to wait to get to, but there's kind of a conversation that ties into that scenario. I had done that first Death by Stereo record, and when Ensign left, kind of in the manner that they did, It felt like people around me were more bummed about it. I was bummed about it, but they were more angry about it. And I remember Paul saying like, we would never do something like that.
And then record two, epitaph wants to sign them you know and and i want my friends to do that's a huge one you know like that wasn't the same as nitro i was never impressed with what nitro was as a record label um but epitaph was like a big deal and that was gonna be a big deal for death by stereo and those guys are my friends like i want them to do that record like that's awesome um but paul kind of felt guilty a little bit uh because he was like we would never that's so fucked up that ensign
did that and uh then literally the next record they get offered epitaph you know and both of those bands like that was still the days of you know multi-record contracts both of those bands are in contract i had to let them go you know like i i could have i could have been a jerk and said no you have to do this but why would i want to do a record by a band who wants to do it with someone else that makes no sense but uh death by stereo made sure that you know Epitaph took care of me a little bit,
not necessarily just financially, but just in a good relationship. They let me do the vinyl versions of it. They basically paid for me to put out an EP for Death by Stereo beforehand. Epitaph, I don't know what other bands' relationships have been with that record label. I'm sure there's a spectrum. Man, Epitaph was fantastic to me. Brett Gerwitz is a stand-up dude as far as I'm concerned.
yeah i i didn't realize that the second record was on epitaph i thought that was the third one but
uh yeah i did the vinyl for this the epitaph did the second and third records i did the vinyl for both of those as well as the ep right before the second record and then by the time the the last epitaph record so that would have been their fourth lp kind of came around uh like vinyl was just really a difficult sell so they just didn't do a vinyl version of it
yeah Yeah, I'm going to get to actually both those things, although we don't have to get to Death by Stereo anymore. Although we can say how big they were. It was pretty mind-blowing. They came out, and their sound was like nothing else, and they blew up out the gate. And
they should have. That first record was, I'd say, genre-defining, if there was a genre that sprung up after them, but nobody could really do what they did, so there wasn't really a scene that involved you know, that was copycats of them. But that first record is, is unlike anything else I put out. I feel like it was unlike anything that was coming out at the time. And I still think it sounds unlike anything that comes out now. It's, it was a, it was a pretty unique record.
Yeah. Which was so cool that it caught on because it was, it was wild sounding. Um, you know, the combination of, of Jim being like one of the greatest guitarists on earth, plus Ephraim singing like no one else, like can't touch it, you know? so yeah
that record that record is special
yeah i wish i liked it i like you don't like it really no i i would see them and be like god this band is fucking awesome like they're one of those bands like you you watch and you know how awesome they are and and i respected it and i liked all the guys and it's just like i it doesn't it it doesn't resonate with me um I always thought I would be the guy that got into them on the third record. It never really happened. But I always just knew. I would see them, and people are going nuts.
And it's like, this band is so great live. I wish I loved them. I want to be a part of this. And it never touched me like that. I don't know why. So let's go back a year before that. OK. Because I want to talk about Adamantium. I think this is a band kind of like forgotten history now. Um, cause they're a heavy band and they were fucking huge, um, for Southern California. And so you do their LP, um, from the depths of depression 98. And, and then like, they kind of tie in.
It's that, it's that whole thing. This is like when you're really like indecision gets going, you do the adamantium, you do the throw down, you do the death by stereo, um, And it's like all these bands can fucking headline showcase. These are like hot times. So let's talk about Adamantium a little bit. And how do you feel about this band? How do you feel about this record? And where do you think they fit into history now looking back on it?
As far as the record, I kind of feel in a similar way to it as I did about the Death by Stereo. I was never really... much of, like, a metal guy. Like, you know, when I kind of found punk, I was into things that sounded punk, you know? There's, like, the handful of guilty pleasures that you have out there. I mean, the first time you hear Slayer, it's undeniable and things like that.
But for the most part, I wasn't really well aware of a lot of different metal influences that they were probably pulling from. So it was, like, fresh music to me. And I don't think anyone really... sounded like what they were playing, at least on that first record. But more than anything, they were kind of like the spark that kind of started that little Orange County fire.
You know, the 18 Visions and Bleeding Through and Throwdown and, you know, the stuff that, you know... ended up being popular for Trust Kill for the next few years after them. They were kind of like the unsung heroes that kind of were the first of those. And yeah, they're probably not remembered in as high of a context as, you know, I personally remember them.
But the people who were at Showcase in the late 90s and got to see Adamantium, I mean, they can tell you, you know, it was unlike anything. It was insane, the reactions they would get. It was unlike any other band I'd ever seen before, including Bad Brains didn't get a reaction that Adamantine would get in a hometown showcase. It was crazy. It was a perfect mix for them. Perfect
timing. And 18 Visions predates them, right? But Throwdown and Bleeding Through Come After.
I don't know if... the name 18 Visions predates them. Like some of the 18 Visions guys had a band called Macabre before that. And Adamantium was actually, when they first started, less of kind of like the medley stuff that they played in Adamantium. They were in a band called Collapse. And they actually, I saw them play once, and that was in 95. So I think that predates probably 18 Visions.
But it was sort of the same band, but I remember they played like a New Year's Eve house show in Long Beach with Mouthpiece.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, it's kind of weird when you think of what they were later, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and Macabre, I think, maybe it was only James that was in, shared members in that, but I feel like Macabre kind of turned into 18 Visions, but I don't really know their history that well, but they were around the same time.
Okay, yeah, so 18 Visions beats them by a year, at least in LPs, so that the one that came out on Life Sentence, I think that's a Salt Lake label, the Lifeless
record,
that comes out in 97.
Okay, when does the Adamantium 7-inch come out?
Oh, now we're relying on my slow ass computer. It took 10 seconds to pull up 18 Visions. I'll pull
it up. But they're probably right around the same time. I mean, you know, give or take, you know,
six to eight, 12 months. I saw 18 Visions at the time and they were like a respectable local band. But like Adam, I think that what you said is probably correct. Like Adam Antium really lit that spark there. that like blew up the scene. So all those bands would blow up.
Yeah.
So maybe that's the legacy. And I think that that's kind of rad. Cause even if they aren't, I think that the, the other three bands get talked about more and kind of are, are more remembered that like, they
also got to do, they got to do more, you know, at adamantium, you know, they, they kind of flamed out kind of early, you know, even though they had, you know, they did a second record, uh, you know, a couple of years later, it wasn't, it wasn't quite the same lineup. It wasn't the same mixture of ingredients, you know, and, and sometimes that's, that hurts.
Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. The, uh, the adamantium seven is just 97 on that's on Chase's label, right? Prime
director.
Yep. Yep. Well, sick. And then in 99, you do the first throwdown record. And again, so like the scene is ready for throwdown and, They're pretty big out the gate. They do a 7-inch before Beyond Repair, correct?
They do. Beyond Repair was actually supposed to be the CD version of the 7-inch. They recorded a 7-inch and a demo at the same time. So half the songs came out on a vinyl 7-inch, the other half were on a cassette demo. And I had been talking with Dom, and Dom was like, man, I really wish it was on CD. And would you be interested in doing it? And I was like, yeah, let's do it. I'll put it out on CD.
And then fast forward like a week, maybe after talking to everybody in the band, they were like, let's just rerecord all the songs for the CD. So that's kind of how Beyond Repair came. It wasn't like, hey, let's do an LP. It was like, let's just do a version of your 7-inch demo onto CD. So it was almost instantaneous. It was like that stuff came out. They were already recording songs. Beyond Repair.
Yeah, and they're huge out the gate, right?
Probably not right out the gate, you know. A lot of the early shows, you know, they were obviously a very tongue-in-cheek band. Some of that history is probably lost to time, you know, as far as what the popular version of them ended up being. But, you know, they were called throwdown bands. You know, like everyone in the band was like five foot five and under, you know, is like they loved Hatebreed. They just wanted to write breakdowns and write silly lyrics.
And, you know, they'd have friends dress up like ring card girls and hold like song number one sign and walk in front of them while they played. You know what I mean? And just do silly stuff like that.
And, you know, sometimes like those... lighthearted you don't have to take it serious bands will catch on with people when everything else is kind of taking themselves really seriously and that's kind of what happened with throw down but once once beyond repair came out once that kind of that switch kind of clicked you know and maybe beyond repair uh kind of changed the the image of them being like the jokey joke band that played first on some show uh to being a headliner with an album, that's
probably the case. But when it turned over, it turned over big. They were the fun band to go see it showcase. You knew it was going to be crazy.
Yeah, Throwdown was huge. And I hate to say it, Dave, but I love the third album the most. And that's the one...
Haymaker?
Yeah.
I mean, that's obviously the record when they... I mean, I... you don't have to be blood is like truly their first album. You know, like, like I said, beyond repair was kind of, uh, it was almost like a, uh, a greatest hits compilation before a band should have a greatest hits compilation. You know what I mean? Uh, you know, it was just kind of like a, a mishmash of those songs, like just to get them done onto a CD.
And, uh, you don't have to be led as like the first, that's the first throw down album. And, and, and, It sounds a lot different, I think, than Beyond Repair. And then a lot of those songs that ended up on Haymaker, they had written, you know, with Keith singing. I think they even recorded a lot of those songs. There's versions like on comps and stuff like that. But when Dave switched, you know, Dave became like kind of the guiding force when he became the singer.
And he wanted to do a serious band, and he did. You know, it changed... I don't know, it changed the... concept of what that band originally was, you know, whether you, you like the, the newer version or the older version doesn't really matter, but it was, it felt like a different band, you know, Dave, it was, it wasn't writing jokes anymore.
Yeah. Yeah. He's just a really good singer and the production on the album is insane. And the drumming supposedly like you can, maybe, you know, but, uh, I always heard the Jared, like he learned it in one practice and what nailed it. Is that, do you know if that's true?
Probably. I don't know if that's specifically true, but it wouldn't shock me. I mean, Jared, he's a prodigy when it comes to drumming. I do remember when he'd gone to the Berklee School of Music, and when he was living in Boston, he was kind of like the go-to studio drummer. So he ended up playing on an American Nightmare record and a Hope Conspiracy record. And I think it was Hope Conspiracy he might have done first.
And you know, he, there was no talk about him being a permanent part of the band. Like he's basically helping them out on the recording. Cause he loves to record. And, uh, you know, he, he did his Jared stereo kind of drum fills and what have you. And they thought that it would be easy to find a drummer that could just like play that stuff, you know, for the live show. And it wasn't. So I know when he recorded American nightmare, I'm pretty sure Tim went to him and said, Hey, We need this.
Like, if you're not going to join the band, you need to play stuff that someone else is going to be able to play. Otherwise, it just looks like you're cheating it every time live. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Oh, that's so wild.
But yeah, Jared's, I mean, it's insane. I mean, that was like the other thing with Death by Stereo and that first lineup, you know, like so much of that unique stuff.
Yeah. Didn't he do a Vandals tour and get ripped off?
I don't know about any of that sort of stuff, but he definitely played with the Vandals, which is crazy. When you think of a band of what the Vandals are, they've had some of the best drummers and punk play in that band. Josh Freese, Jared Stereo, Brooks Wackerman, they've had really good people play.
Yeah, I wonder how they would come on his radar, or how he would come on their radar. It's interesting. Um...
Go ahead. I mean, yeah. Joe Escalante from the Vandals was definitely familiar with Death by Stereo. He was actually our acting lawyer for Indecision and Death by Stereo when they signed to Epitaph.
Oh, that's so cool.
Yeah.
That's so cool. Okay. In the year 2000, you do something pretty unique that a fair amount of labels have done since then. But you do the split series, Bunch of Seven Inches. So tell me if I missed any, but you do the No Reply, Life's Halt, which is fucking amazing. Buried Alive, Reach the Sky, Death by Stero, Incin, Bane, Adamantium, Voorhees, Kill Your Idols. And yeah, so where did the idea for this come from? And do you think it was a good idea?
Yeah, absolutely it was. It was so fun. That... That happened still in the era when we had the Indecision Hotel. So we had bands staying at the house literally every night. You'd just come home and just like, oh, this band is staying here. And through that, there were so many people that I had become friends with, all these bands that were on other record labels that all kind of wanted to like, man, it'd be fun if we could do something on Indecision.
You know, I'm like, yeah, that would be awesome. And that split series ended up kind of being the way for that to happen. Um, and we were able to kind of tie almost all of those splits into summer tours. So like the life's hall, no reply was further. We made that and they had it ready for their summer tour that they did together. Um, buried alive and reach sky did it, did a tour together, uh, and had that record, uh,
Yeah, they played Lizard Star in Oxnard.
Yep. And then Bane Adamantium. They toured that summer together. It was actually Bane Adamantium and Death by Stereo doing it. And then the Death by Stereo, Ensign, kind of like as a request from Ensign, they wanted to do one more record on Indecision, and they loved Death by Stereo and really wanted to do it. Death wanted to have a record out as well for that tour, so we did that.
The only one that kind of doesn't fit in that mold, although it was supposed to, was the Kill Your Idols Voorhees, because that wasn't originally supposed to be Voorhees.
What was it going to be?
It was supposed to be Kill Your Idols and Indecision,
which
I remember having a conversation with Justin Brannan. We were excited, like, wow, it's finally going to happen. Indecision's going to do a record on Indecision. And You know, I was excited just for that. But something happened. I think that might have been right around the time they broke up. And it was, you know, before they started up Most Precious Blood. But Kill Your Idols still really wanted to do a split. And they came to me and said, hey, what would you think about doing us and Voorhees?
And, I mean, I was already familiar with Voorhees. I dug them and I was like... man that'd be kind of interesting yeah you know and they're really like the only like european band that ever really recorded for indecision you know yeah um so uh yeah that's kind of how that one happened but yeah originally it was supposed to be uh kill your idols and indecision
well both are cool that's like that would have been a cool thing and then uh but the vorhees killer idols is cool and i think they did too they toured together no
They might have. I didn't see it. I've actually never seen Voorhees play.
Okay. Either that or Andy just used to always wear a Voorhees
shirt. I don't know. That's probably the case.
Yeah. Also in the year 2000, you do one of the best albums on Indecision, which is the Count Me Out 110. And how do you come across these guys?
They had actually already done an EP on... ambassador i think uh ryan and and steve hertz's label and so i was already familiar with them and uh a couple of the guys were playing in time flies who were already on indecision and they had recorded that lp i don't know if ambassador was supposed to put out 110 or if they just recorded it with like kind of we don't know what we're going to do with it but it was recorded already and the guys in time flies were like hey you know like Colin and Charlie
got this other band, Count Me Out. We really think you should put it out. You should hear it. I said, okay, yeah, send me it. And they sent it to me and I was like, what? Yes, please. I couldn't believe they'd been sitting at like, they kind of like, you know, like kind of like casually like, just like, ah, it's like, you know, another band that we're doing. And I heard, I was like, holy crap. Like, I fucking love this, you know? And that's really how it happened.
That record was already in the can by the time I got brought in. And it was just kind of like a nonchalant conversation. Like, hey, what would you think about doing this? I was like, hell yes, I want to do this.
I
love that band. We talked about it on that other podcast, but they're a band that truly never got the love that I feel like they deserved.
Yeah, I wonder if there'll be a resurgence of that. You just re-released the LPs recently. So there's no time like the present. Everyone needs to go. And Daniel writes for both of them. So you should really listen to both of them. They're probably both awesome. The second one didn't connect with me the way that the first one did. But it still sounded really good. I remember listening to it in the van.
That's interesting you say that. I feel like more people have told me that the second record connected with him more than the first.
Oh, it's just the production on the first one is like, it's one of the best sounding hardcore records of all time. You think
so? Wow.
There's something in the water in D.C. that day when they recorded with them. Like, oh, the production is untouchable. And there's so many little intricacies in that record. I always call it the Blue Oyster Cult breakdown. It's one of the later tracks where it cuts out and it's like...
I
know the part you're
talking about.
Yeah, it's like... oh my god like that's so sick and it comes in on the toms like full youth crew style and like it's melodic without being like i don't know because i'm not a big fan of melodic hardcore but these guys and actually the next band that we talk about like they take it to the limit of where like i get it in the feels i just i absolutely love it i love this record and uh yeah so if people haven't heard count me out like you should listen to it it sounds like i mean the recording is
so fucking good So, yeah, it's like there's no datedness on it. Like, it sounds like it could have come out yesterday, you know? I absolutely love it. But, yeah, totally underrated band that people should check out, as well as Faded Grey, Quiet Time of Desperation, my favorite Indecision release, and sounds best on grey vinyl, which I still have. And I absolutely love this record. I assume that you knew Lance for a long time before this.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's really how it happened. Me and Lance were already really good friends and I don't really remember exactly how the conversation went, but at some point we had like a conversation and he was like, Hey, I got the band, this band faded gray. We want to do a record. I really just want to do it with you. If you don't want to do it, I understand, but you know, the only person I want to do a record with is you. And yeah, of course I'm doing that, you know?
Um, and it just so happened that the band ruled and they were awesome people. So it was like this perfect, this perfect combination of everything. Like I'm, I really love that record. And I, and I remember when we were talking about, uh, what they were trying to do with the record before it was actually recorded. Trying to like, oh, do we want to try to go here? Do we want to try to go there? What are we looking for on the record?
And all Lance said is like, I just want to do a record that's crucial. I don't care about anything else about it. And that kind of stuck with me. And I think he did it. I think it's a crucial record. I think all those songs are... The record's greater than the sum of its parts. It's a great record.
Yeah, I love it so much. It's one of the records that like... I don't know. I fall in love with a lot of records, obviously. But for some reason, my favorite records are the ones where I like side B more than side A. Because people kind of try to front load their records sometimes. And a lot of times, the first handful of songs are the best songs. But then when you can connect with the second side of the record... it just feels like so special, you know?
And like this record is one of those, like, I just absolutely love it. And then talking about like, you know, you putting out your friends records, like there's no better feeling in the world when your friends bands don't suck, you know? It's like, Oh my God, buddies with this guy and his band actually rules. Like, fuck yes.
I used to reflect on that like all the time. Like, man, how lucky I am. Cause it's, I'm not someone that's out there. Like I'm not going to shows looking for bands who can assign that kind of stuff. I just happened to like do all my friends bands. And I, and I lucky enough that I have this talent pool around me that are just like gifted and do things that I love and do it right. And you know, it's, it's, it's dumb luck. Believe me, it's, it's not, it's not me. I wasn't doing anything correct.
You know, I just happened to be, I just happened to surround myself with awesome people. you know, on, on a, a little side story on, on that faded gray. Um, when that record came out, uh, that was when revelation still had like a, not, not a whole office full of like salespeople. There was probably like two or three people that handled like store accounts. Cause there was enough stores that you couldn't have people that handle accounts. And, uh, there was a guy that worked there.
His name escapes me now, but he was all in on that. Like, Death Cab for Cutie, like, emo scene. And Faye DeGray had that song, Emo Solution, on the record. And it made him so angry. He wouldn't sell any of them.
So I remember,
I even remember, like, kind of having, like, a conversation once with Vic. I think she was working there already at that time. And just like, hey, this guy's not going to, like, submarine my record, is he? And she's like, no, no, he won't.
But it's just like, he was so... bothered by it you would have thought like it's not like it's like it's not like they're you know bulldoze you know what i mean it's just like right they're like these are these are guys that would go to emo shows you know what i mean like but it was like this guy was so upset so upset by the emo solution
which is ridiculous because if you read the lyrics like they're really well thought out it's like of course this guy's actually writing better lyrics than your emo bands dude oh for sure
for sure
it's so funny But yeah, you talk about being surrounded by talent. I think everyone would be disappointed if I didn't bring it up. But in 01, you do In Control Another Year, which we've never been accused of oozing with talent. But we always paid you back. So I'll take that.
I
don't owe you a dollar, I don't think. Do I?
No. No, I don't think so.
Yeah, we always took that very seriously. We always gave you our money. So if we're remembered for nothing else, I would like it to be that. A band that honored its debts.
And a band of real dudes. I mean, here we are doing your podcast. It's not like this is the only time you and me ever have interactions with each other. This is a friendship now two decades in. If there's any kind of mark that you could kind of... give a band where like, was this signing a good idea? Was putting out this record a good idea? Like if I still talk to those guys, they're still my friends.
Right.
That's, that's, that's a good check Mark, you know?
Yeah. I mean, I still consider, and
you're a good band. I know, I know it's, it's the, whenever you talk about your own band, you kind of, cause I do the same thing with, you know, the record label, you kind of become self depreciating a little bit, but like in control fucking brought it, you know? I mean, if, Besides just paying me back, you know, you guys never had a boring show. At least not one that I remember.
No, we killed it to those eight people in El Paso every night. I mean, I would hope they didn't walk away bummed, you know, like that. I mean, that was something we brought. But yeah.
Being able to still be excited to play when there's eight people there is a skill set. that not anyone can have. You know, that's, that's a true, that's a litmus test for, for how much you really want to be there.
Well, it's not their fault that they don't have a scene or maybe it is, but like they went out, right? Like they showed up. So why, why should they be, why should they be punished for not having a hundred friends? Like maybe they are like a legit, like hardcore loner, you know, that like went out to the show cause they're into it. Like, I know what that's like, you know, like, to be into stuff that other people aren't into or whatever. Like, I don't know. I just... Whatever.
I mean, we're fortunate enough that Nard, like, it has a heavy history. It's got lots of times of being, like, a poppin' scene. But then I also know the other side of it where, you know, for the hardcore scene there, like, you know, there was a time that we kind of built it from scratch. Mm-hmm. Because we existed, like, adjacent to everything else. Like, it was its own, like, little carved-out thing.
And, I mean... I take a little bit of credit for like kind of bringing it together, you know, too, with like merging it back up with like the missing 23rds and the Ventura. So, you know, it's like everyone now it's like one big happy family, which is fucking great. It's what I always wanted. I never had a piece of like the drama, you know, I was just like, I was just on a side cause I was on a side, but, uh, Hey, what are you going to do? But yeah.
Um, that's interesting though, Dave, like do you, cause you've been around for so long and you've seen so many people come and go, like, how do you like, can you do a smell test? Like when you met me or when I was like, I really want to be on indecision. Like, would, did you know, like, or were you like, who is this guy? Like, he's going to be like, you know, here today, gone tomorrow. Like how, how do you, how do you sniff people out to know if they're being legit?
Yeah. I mean, I guess there is a little bit of a, like a sixth sense on that kind of stuff. Cause there's definitely like, uh, bands that people, you know, asked me about after the fact, like, Hey, how come you never did this band? You know? And it's like, well, the reality, I never did that band because we never had a conversation about it. But, you know, also like, man, I kind of got a feeling from that guy. Like this dude's not the real deal. Like this is a passing phase for him.
He's going to be gone in a year, which, you know, people, life happens and people disappear and people go on to other things, you know? But like, uh, I remember the conversation that you and I had before, uh, you know, we agreed to do the record, you know, and, and I mean, you were bleeding sincerity over it, you know, like, and you, and you, I mean, maybe to you, it felt like you were coming to me with like, here's a list of things that, you know, you don't have to worry about.
We have a van, we have this, we'll pay you back. We do this. Like all that stuff was great, you know, but I could sense that you just really wanted to do this. And that's the first step. There's bands that I talked to that ended up being very popular and probably would have been very good signings for Indecision as far as name recognition and selling records and stuff like that. But they were just like, what can you do for us? What can you get us? How much can we get for this?
I was never interested in giving people deals. It's just like, you want to do a record? with me i want to do a record with you let's figure out all the rest you know um and i got that feeling from you right away i mean there's a there's a there's a few bands i've i've had conversations like that i mean i've probably been wrong here and there but uh not in any uh great capacity
i can name one you should assign oh yeah yeah you should assign modern life is war I
pitched them. I never had a conversation with those guys myself. I never actually met them. No, we went to lunch. We did?
Yeah. When? We went to breakfast or lunch together.
With Modern Life is War?
Yeah. Swear to God.
Wow. I don't have any recollection of that.
How crazy is that? You must have been drowsy. You should have had two coffees, Dave.
Oh, man. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Wow.
That's the only band I ever pitched to you, I think.
Oh,
wow. Yeah. But I should give credit. Thank you to Daniel for bringing us up, at least. But that was a weird-ass conversation, because I didn't know you that well outside of a high. Yeah. And then Daniel's like, I think Dave might be interested. You should call him. Because I had all the money saved up, and we were going to put out our own record. But I had that chunk of money, and it's like, if I can get someone else to do this record, I can buy a van. And that was the conversation.
Yeah. As soon as he agreed to the record, we went out and bought a van. And the van lasted us our whole band. So it was great. And then we sold it to Spencer, who's a Santa Cruz hardcore stalwart. At that time, he was doing Over the Top was his band. But he promoted a bunch of shows. He booked our shows up there and shit. So it was still in hardcore when I sold it, which is cool. And then he told me what band he sold it to. And then I saw him that night that I saw you at Programme.
And he was giving me the whole lineage of where the in-control van ended up at or whatever. But pretty funny. Yeah, I had to sell it finally because we broke up and it got towed twice. And I was like, I just can't have this thing anymore.
I've lost more than one van that way. You know, where like a band broke up or, you know, they weren't doing much and they just like left it on the street and it got towed and... whoever's house it was in front of just like never told anybody else. And like, Hey, where's that van? Like, Oh, I got towed like three months ago.
What? Oh, that's brutal. Yeah. So on the, on the Daniel topic, let's talk about over my head to body. This is the same time. Um, do you remember how this project got brought to you? The, they did a demo and then you did the first seven ish, no runners. They needed both. Do you remember how they came to you?
I, I honestly don't. Um, at least I don't remember any specifics. If I had to take a guess, it would, it would have to been through Rob, you know? I mean, I had known Rob for such a long time and, you know, a man's family to me. So any band he would do, I would be game before I ever even heard it, you know? Um, but I, yeah, I, I, I assume that he's the one that, that brought the idea to me originally. And, you know,
And these records are cool. And they went out and they did it. They went and toured with bands and so forth. They got a little bit of the unbroken rub and got to get on good tours. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, they don't have like a, you know, an extensive history of like, you know, they're not Black Flag, you know, but they went out to the East Coast a couple times, you know, went to Europe, you know, did the West Coast. Like, they did...
There was never like a... I mean, obviously, I would want the bands to tour as much as they... possibly can, but I'm not expecting anyone to be on the, on the road, you know, nine months out of the year, you know, like, um, and that was like something for me, like Africa's Ensign was on tour almost year round. And it, I wasn't, it wasn't beneficial to me financially, you know?
So even in that sense, I was like, I don't know if I want a band that's not popular enough to be touring year round, touring year round. Cause I, I can't really afford to do it. I mean, when Ensign was on the label, I could only afford to do, I mean, afford is, is, is a comfortable way of saying it, but you know, they were the only band that like, I could even come up with enough money for them to be even doing stuff.
I mean, you see the explosion as soon as Ensign was off the label, it's like, I picked up like four bands, five bands right off the bat, you know? Yeah. I was able to like, kind of to spread those resources. And that was one of those things that, you know, It's really something that you have to learn to survive the long run is being able to manage your resources. There are going to be times where you can't justify this or you can't justify that and you have to have expectations on this.
But if you do manage those resources and you're honest with everybody, I feel like it works out the best that it can.
Yeah, it's just fucked up that in a roundabout way we can credit noodles for the late 90s OC hardcore explosion. That's kind of a bummer. Noodles? Yeah, because if you wouldn't have taken Ensign off your shoulders there, then you wouldn't have done the adamantium throwdown and the death by stereo, which blew up OC in the late 90s.
That's true. It could have been a completely different path for the label. Who knows?
Anyway, shout out Noodles, OC Hardcore MVP.
Weirdly enough, the neighborhood I live in here in Garden Grove, the local high school is where Noodles and his brother went to school.
And also, wasn't the Offspring operation right next door to Rev?
Nitro was... like across the street. They were on the, they were on Gothard as well, but they were like across the street in another warehouse. And then they actually moved to garden Grove kind of near where the indecision hotel was.
Okay.
Cause I actually used to go pick up records there.
Cool. Um, one thing you get to do, I didn't put the date, but it's kind of cool because you got to put out Edo's band. Who's one of your best friends, the welcome to your life. Cool record. Is
him
and the singer a show of hands who I'm spacing on his name? Steve. Shout out Steve.
Yeah, it was him and Steve and then the guitar player Vijay was already on Indecision because he actually plays on the Bleeding Through record that I did. So weirdly enough they have like a bleeding through connection. Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, Edo lived at the indecision hotel. Um, he was unofficially, probably the only employee, the label ever had, uh, I say unofficially, cause it's not like he ever got a paycheck. It was more like, okay, you get dinner. I pay for dinner.
I pay for a part of your rent this month. If you do this or, you know, little things like that, uh, piecemealing out, uh, little duties for him. Um, but yeah, uh, Like, he put in a lot of effort into Indecision. How could I not... How could his band not be on Indecision? It would have been weird, you know?
Yeah, that would have been a weird one if it came out anywhere else, right?
Yeah. It'd be very strange.
Yeah, and then we should say that Dave got his Alan Gores black belt. Have you gotten your black belt yet, Dave?
Yeah, I should be getting... This year, I'll get the... I'll have my second degree on my black belt.
Oh,
shit. Yeah, so it's been six years. Six years ago, I got a black belt. But weirdly enough, the original Indecision Hotel roommates was myself, Kevin Finn, and Dave Ito. And as far as consistently going to jiu-jitsu, Kevin was the first of us to like, okay, I'm going to actually go to this school and go every, you know, a few times a week. And then I was second in that line. And then Ido was the last one in line. And then the black belts have gone literally the other way.
Like Ido was the first one to get a black belt, then me, and then Kevin is still a brown belt. And I think he's been a brown belt for like, I don't even know how long, probably like nine years, maybe 10, you know, like he's been a brown belt for, he's never actually gotten it. But yeah, we went in the complete, opposite order that it should have happened. He does a line jumper.
Who is Finn under? What's that? Who is Kevin Finn under?
He got his brown belt under, I think, Sean Williams. Okay. He kind of jumped around because he was training at Hicks and Gracie's Academy in L.A., And then he moved to Chicago for a while and trained out there and then moved back out here and was training with some of the guys that used to be at the Hickson Academy. And yeah, I don't know. And now he's training with... I don't even know. Cabrinha, maybe? He's kind of been all over the place. You know what?
If it's not Sean Williams, he might have gotten his brown belt from Sean Patrick Flannery, which is the guy from Budok Saints. He played powder.
Oh, how about that? And who's he a black belt under?
If it's not Hickson, it was one of Hickson's black belts. Okay. marcio i think
okay
i i believe that's or maybe he maybe he got a he might have been a brown belt when he opened up the academy and sean williams might have given him a black belt i can't remember but that was his partner and when they first started that gym but that's still pretty cool if you got your black belt from the dude from bodock saints
yeah yeah totally that's a that's a side note we'll get to that stuff um i wanted to quickly mention stagold i thought that those records those records were indecision standouts and it's a it's a shame that they didn't do more. They're a band that broke up too early for sure. Don't you think?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was, you know, I think some internal strife amongst them. Um, guys can be the best of friends until they go out on tour. And the time that you have to be kind of understanding for your friend is at its all time high and you just don't have the capacity for it. Um, I think tour is what kind of might've killed that band to be honest. And I know that they did a summer tour that, you know, wasn't promoted great.
I don't know who we had book it, but you know, it's, you've been on tours before where, you know, a bunch of shows fall through, it's discouraging. And, you know, if not, everybody's on board with being like, ah, whatever about it. Uh, it can get, bad, you know?
Uh, I don't specifically remember any kind of like blowout for those guys, but I, I, uh, I, I had the feeling that it was like, uh, pressures on tour kind of made maybe a member or two realize like, I don't, I don't know how much I want to do this full time, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I should, I should start a consulting firm of, of bands that want to survive bad tours. Cause I got some advice, you know? So I'll get, I'll give some away for free. Um,
They were never blessed with a great recording either.
No, but nothing terrible. Um, but yeah, you're right. Like they could have, yeah, you're right. I do want to say for
the LP, the LP in particular, like that was one, you know, like I remember even at the time, cause that record was coming out when they were already kind of like, we don't know how much longer we're going to last, you know?
Um, and they were not happy with, The mix on it, I think maybe the record kind of got rushed, not even necessarily by them, but just in the studio, things weren't clicking, the mixing didn't go well, and then it was like, you get the final recording and you're sitting there listening and you're like, ugh, we've got to fix this. It doesn't sound good. And then it's just like, do we want to fix it?
And once you're kind of at that point where you're kind of, ugh, I just want to get this done, that's not good, you know? um it's not a good way to ever believe me if if if if we if we if we had the the actual two inch unmet like unmixed reels believe me we would we would have done a new version of it by now but i think those reels are are gone
yeah and maybe the maybe the seven sounds better than the lp but they should have re-recorded also off that first seven inch at tgif song i think it was on their demo and that first seven it's just like That song is so fucking good. They should have done Face to Face Disconnected and put it on every record. That's
actually a record too that was already done by the time it came to me. I wasn't originally supposed to put it out. Everything's
good about the record. The artwork on it is like... If they would have gone on to something bigger, even the artwork could have been something kind of semi-iconic.
Mm-hmm.
But what are you going to do? So the record came to you. Who was going to do it originally?
They had actually sent me a demo, and I heard it, and I loved it because I felt like, oh, this is like a mix of a few bands that I really like, but no one really kind of sounds like this.
And there's not that many bands that... picked up on demos you know most most of the bands on the label were comprised of people that had already done records on the label or were kind of in our inner circle you know even like something like in control you know daniel uh you know talking to me about in control or something like that that's that that's how you get on you know it's not like let's send a demo and see what he says you know like that stuff i've always thought man that's that's hard
to like just hear a demo and decide like, this is what I want to be a part of when you don't know these people and that sort of stuff. So, but stay gold is the kind of an exception to that rule. I had gotten that demo and I was like, wow, this is awesome. And, uh, I had reached out to some people up in, up in Washington that I knew and asked them if they knew any of these guys. And yeah, they said they're really great guys. So I said, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out to them.
So I had reached out to them and they're like, oh, well, we're already doing a seven inch, uh, coming out on, uh, uh, Maybe it's Mankind or Ammunition. I don't remember the order of Igby's labels, but Igby was going to put out the record, like the 7-inch. And I said, okay, well, let's talk about it maybe full length later. And they're like, okay. And then I think it was probably within a day or two, I got a call back from them, and they're like, hey... do you still want to do the seven inch?
I was like, yeah, what's going on with everybody? Like he doesn't have the time or money to do it. So I went and talked to Igby. I said, Hey, or what's going on with the stay gold? He's like, Oh, you want to do it? And he basically just handed me over the record. I paid him back for it, like whatever he had put into it. And that's how I ended up getting it. Kind of strange.
Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. The first one they did was on anchor out of Canada and then you did the second one.
Yeah. I mean, I think those were like, came out the same time. They might've. I think they might actually be the same recording.
Or that 7-inch might be the demo. Who knows?
The demo, they have those 7-inches, and then maybe three songs apiece, and then to make them a four-song and a five-song, they took songs off the demo to put on both of the 7-inch. Gotcha. Yeah, it's a weird history for all those songs.
Yeah, O2 also... seminal indecision band you do the suicide file and these are these are some of the best indecision records for sure because there's not a bad suicide file song they just they kill it um
and i and i think they're even i think they're a band that uh you hear the record and you're like yeah it's good and then you see them live and you go back and you listen to that record and you really understand how good it is
yeah i i absolutely agree with that they were killer live um and i love to listen to the record still So this is just a great, great band. That's a great part of the catalog. I wanted to talk about in the early 2000s, like something that's going to, it's kind of totally washed over in history because it went away and then it came back. But can we talk about like vinyl just died completely. Was that a slow fall off or did it happen overnight or how would you describe what happened?
I don't know if I'd call it a slow fall-off. And I don't even know that it necessarily died outright. The trend, because we did this, obviously, started having other labels do vinyl licenses of your releases. And there's a couple different reasons that we do this. One, the label was busy. I was putting out a lot of records, spending a lot of money on... you know, advertising and all other kinds of things that you have to do.
And, you know, tour vans and this and that, um, the money that you got to lay out beforehand for a release to put out on compact disc vinyl, even some of those earlier ones, I even did cassettes of, um, which I wish I would have had extra copies of like five years ago when people are buying old cassettes, which destroyed me because I probably threw half of those in the trash. It was just expensive.
So it's like when I have three or four releases all on deck at the same time, to have to press all of them on multiple formats was pretty taxing financially.
So having someone else take maybe the burden of the most expensive to produce format um because cds were really the only reason that like the label was uh functional financially you know it was this kind of weird era where cd was king and it was something that you sold for slightly more than the vinyl version but it actually cost less than the vinyl version to make um but even on like a smaller quantity of records, you can make enough at an independent label, you know, to pay the bills, which is
incredible, you know, because you couldn't really do that with just straight vinyl. But more so for me, it was being able to not have to pay for, you know, if I have six records coming out, that's two formats a piece, that's 12 formats that I have to work on. I can get six of them done, and then license out the other one. So I, me personally, I still get the satisfaction because I want the vinyl. I'm not keeping any of the CDs. I want the vinyl for myself.
And the way I looked at it too is like most of the labels I did that with were younger startup labels and maybe didn't have the ability to like, how do I sign a band? How do I do this? So, I mean, I walked them through almost everything. I think besides maybe the Promise record that Deathwish did the vinyl for, And Deathwish wasn't Deathwish at that time, even when I did that, you know? But like the Deathwish that is today. But most of those vinyl releases, I still did the layout for.
I got the masters ready for them and said, here, you need to send this to here. You need to send this here and that there. And that's that. I kind of helped them do it, you know? And for a lot of those labels, that was still early on in their existence, you know? And I felt like it... bred this like community feel, you know, I'm not in competition with anybody. I've never felt that way. I'm not competing for bands or anything like that.
Like to be able to have like a partnership on a release is cool. You know, like to, to, to be able to do the overnight body record with Scott from takeover. It was cool. Cause I, I like Scott, you know, and, and to be able to do, you know, in control with, with, with martyr and, and even like when tigers fight, I do with closed casket early on in, in their existence. And, I just think that was cool.
Especially when someone like the labels that I had been coming up with that all signed bigger Sony distribution deals, there was competition. There wasn't between them. I didn't care. I was never in competition with them. I just wanted to do cool stuff with cool people. I'm not signing... Scott's band. He doesn't, you know, I don't think he had a band, you know, but I got to do a release with him. Like that's pretty cool. Yeah. That's fun. That's the way, that's the way I looked at it.
Yeah. It wasn't even, it wasn't even, it wasn't even so much that vinyl was dying and I, I didn't want to touch vinyl cause I still wanted vinyl, you know? Cause even I want to say maybe right before that era, you know, I was still doing death by stereos, vinyl licenses, you know, from epitaph.
Um, like I liked doing the vinyl, um, but, it was also a way to kind of alleviate some of the financial hardship to keep the label going and, uh, and, and do something cool with other people and, you know, have a relationship there.
Yeah. The best thing about you of you having martyr do the LP for the second in control record was, uh, I got a mad ball test press out of it. So, cause he ended up doing a mad ball seven inch. And so I was like, I need one, please.
Oh,
Awesome. Just
figure out what the current Discogs value of that is and just PayPal me half.
I mean, it doesn't matter the value because I'll never sell it. Like, when am I ever going to come across another Madball 7-inch or another Madball Test Press? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, what are you going to do? I think another notable thing is, this is more on the later side of the indecision, but one of the things you've done such a good job of is putting together discographies.
So even, we've talked about Suicide File, you've kind of, well, you did that one comp thing of putting their stuff together, but for instance, you did the Instead, you did Unbroken, you did Undertow, Mean Season, you did the Outspoken CD, recently Hard Stance. What goes into doing a project like this? And... is it, is it partially like you just wanting it to have like a nice, like it's a nice one-stop shop where someone can like really figure out the history of a band?
Um, yeah, I mean a little bit of that. Um, I just like doing cool projects, you know, uh, it's not so much about putting out records and selling records. It's about doing cool projects and hopefully other people dig it as well. And, uh, You know, that's a lot of different discographies you mentioned. So, I mean, there's different stories amongst all of those, probably very different from one to the other. Well, sure.
But a lot of it, too, was some of those were done in the CD era where a lot of those bands only had vinyl releases or CD releases that were no longer in press. So it was kind of cool to kind of make something new out of it rather than just, like, repress this record and repress this record.
Sure.
But, I mean, I'm a completist. I mean, you know that about me. So, like, being able to, like, put together, like, these giant discographies, you know, with, like, 44 songs or 50 songs or however much it is, was always so much fun.
And I really tried to look at it not in the sense of, like, we're making this compilation of stuff as, like, a greatest hits... you know, discography project or not project, uh, product, um, more so like this is a yearbook for these guys, you know, um, this is, this is something that they spent their entire youth on. Like, let's make this cool. You know, like I, I want you to be able to look back through this booklet, you know, and just be like, Oh, I remember this.
I remember, you know what I mean? Look at all my friends in these photos. Like that's, that's how I looked at a lot of those discographies. Cause you know, outside of, you know, a select few and maybe some new people that latch onto it. Like, the people that that is going to mean the most to are the guys in that band. You know? They're not doing a record so they could go out on tour. Like, we're doing this as kind of, you know, something to encapsulate this magic moment in their life. You know?
And despite what People might think about some guys who've gone on to have bigger and better things. Man, they always loved those first things they did. That holds a special place in your heart forever, even if it wasn't good. Yeah,
I think it's so rad. Because a lot of times when, obviously the bands you've done the discographies of, they're older now. And when you're young, only certain people collect stuff. And even if you do collect stuff, you move around so much that maybe you lose it. So it is rad for them to get something a little later in their life that encapsules everything. I don't know. I think it's super rad. I love it. I think we should jump over MMA just because we've gone two hours already.
And I'm scared that we'll talk about it for two hours. Maybe we should do a bonus pod at some point because then all that stuff gets plucked out. and people can decide not to listen to it because this is a hardcore podcast. Right. And we're total nerds about that stuff.
Okay. Although I would like to know, like, what do you – so for the people that don't know, Dave does and did, like, photography for MMA for a long, long time and got to go to some of the most seminal events, like, in the history of the sport. Although you weren't there at Ultimate 96.
No, no.
to see, to see Don Fry's best night, even better than UFC eight. But, um, what was like the, the best event you were at? Like in feel of like anticipation delivered. Um, and let's talk about Japan first. So would it have been the fader crow cop?
Yeah. Yeah. That was a pretty special event. Like, uh, to be like, you know, in a, in an arena, uh, that's holding like 50, 60,000 people, which, um, is much bigger than a UFC was.
I mean, that's bigger than a UFC is now, but back then, even more so, you know, like those, those early Vegas UFCs, almost everybody that went to that, like had some kind of like connection to like the sport, you know, like they trained or they were a trainer or they were a fighter or they did jujitsu, you know, it wasn't really like a lot of casual fans making up those crowds.
Um, but, pride there was none of that it was straight up fans 50 60 000 people in there dead silent it's just like this this um this kind of culture shock that you've heard about but you're not ready for until you get there it was it was it was pretty surreal to be there and especially you know a lot of those uh people that fought in japan i'd only ever gotten to see in fighting on TV.
And the one you're specifically talking about, the night that Fedor and Krokop fought each other, Kevin Finn actually went with me to Japan.
for that and uh i got him a press pass and we were sitting in the press room and we're just sitting there and like you know sakuraba and and gomi are just coming in and walking and he's just like looking at what is happening like i have no business being here you know we were like still like super fans about it at the time it was it was it was it was pretty neat like uh and i know people talk about pride now you know like it was you know some weird mystic thing like it's got this special place
in like the cultural history of mma but i mean it's It's that doesn't even do it enough. Like it was, it was, it was pretty spectacular.
Yeah. And it would be hard to explain the buildup, like to the fader crow cop to like how big it felt, like, because there's no, like, you know, you see people later in their careers and so forth and, and, you know, crow cop never really did good in UFC. So like people just can't understand what that buildup was and for it to finally happen, you know, cause it should have happened earlier, but they still were able to like make it happen. They met in their prime. Yeah,
and especially something that was, you know, like, everyone looked to the UFC as, like, these are the best guys in the world, and really the number one and number two. At the time, heavyweights in the world were having, like, the two best heavyweights in the world fight in Japan, you know? It was not in the UFC, and it was pretty... And if I'm remembering that card correctly, it's not like those were, like, the only marquee guys on there.
I mean, Vanderlei Silva fought on that one, Shogun... tank abbott i think even fought i think it was the last time igor of ochanchen ever fought um
yes like it was a pretty fighting yoshida on like the undercard
yeah vanderley silva vanderley silva ricardo arona was the first fight of the night like you know maybe that means nothing to to like fans coming into the sport now but like at the time i was like this is the like it Ricardo Vanderlei Silva is making the second walk of the night. That's crazy. This is like their reigning champion.
Yeah. It's just a part of time. It's so weird when I think about it. It's depressing to me because it's like my favorite sport went away. I still watch MMA, but it's never been the same since then. And it's weird to think about the buildup to that fight, just how gnarly it was because Fedor, he... he wrote the blueprint that night on how to beat Crow Cop and Crow Cop was never really the same.
Although he did have flashes of brilliance in like the, the open weight Grand Prix and so forth, which really is a culmination of his career. It's kind of like he was never great again after that night. Like maybe that was like his last hurrah and maybe he shouldn't even win that tournament, you know, but it was like he, there was something that left him after winning that tournament.
I think maybe it's like the ultimate, like emotional dump or something just because he, That was the hump he could never get over. He was a guy that never won a tournament. Even in K1, he never won a tournament. I mean, never won the big tournament. Yeah, but
that was like Japan. Japan was something crazy. That was otherworldly, and it was hard to not be a fan there. Well, also hard not to be a fan there because the Japanese promotions didn't take a gaijin like me seriously. uh, seriously, like every single time, even though I was working for like, you know, like the biggest magazine in Japan, uh, at some of those shows, uh, they refused to give me, uh, uh, a ringside photo spot. They've even taken it, taken it away from me at a pride show before.
Like once I checked in.
Yeah. We should say
that's a, that's a Japanese, that's a Japanese cultural thing, you know?
Totally. Uh, that's why you couldn't go to the massage parlors either.
Yeah, I wasn't doing that.
That's me in my dark Googling history.
There was a thing. I remember that trip that Kevin went with me. There was a place right near where we were staying that we'd walk by every day and it just said live kissing show. And every time I was like, what the hell is the live kissing show? And I remember we asked someone at like one of the press events, like someone that lived there locally. And I'm like, have you ever been to this live kissing? Like, what is it? And they're like, do not go in there. Do not go in there.
I was like, all right, unless you're Yakuza, you do not go in that place.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You can never take advice like that. That's, that's always where I, I go. Like one time I was, I was with this girl and we were in a, like an Uber ride share or something. We were in San Francisco and this other couple was in there and I can't remember what happened. We were telling some crazy story and the guy turned around. He's like, Oh, you think that's crazy? Like one night I was at this bar, like in San, I think it was the Japantown area of San Francisco.
It was crazy. We went in, and people were smoking inside, and all it was was gangsters and prostitutes and this and that. And we're like, oh, cool. Sounds crazy. Whatever. He gets out of the Uber, and we're like, change of plans. Can you take us there? So we went, and it was just like a normal bar. You know, like, you could kind of smoke inside. It was like, you know, you walk down these stairs and they'd let you smoke in that little area outside the bar.
But it was, you know, it was down the stairs or whatever it was like. And the bartender was very flirty. Awesome bartender. And, yeah, there was a couple dudes that were, like, sleeping in there. Like, whatever. It was, like, not that big of a deal. But I always, like, you know, if someone tells you to not go, just go there and see the scenery. But, yeah.
but yeah, we, we shouldn't go that far in MMA cause I don't know how much people want to know, but maybe we should, maybe people should reach out and let us know how much they want us to talk about it because, and maybe we'll do a Patreon pod of it. We can tell the story about how, uh, how you snuck camera into the UFC when sure dog was banned.
Oh yeah. Uh, that was, that wasn't for sure dog, but yeah, it was, it was definitely no, no, that, that I actually snuck the camera in before. for the band era. But yeah, I could almost tell that story.
Yeah. We'll save it for the patrons. So you don't, you don't lose another credential. Um, now just for the completest in the listeners, we should say, we mentioned a pride card. Can you say what the best UFC was that you ever went to?
The best UFC I ever went to. Um, I can't really remember like full cards or anything like that at this point. Um, But there's moments that I remember. And they might not even be the most culturally significant or historical ones. But when BJ won the welterweight title, when he beat Matt Hughes, that was pretty special to see. I mean, that was a big night for him. But really, the one I kind of always come back to was when Vanderlei and Chuck fought.
Even though it was kind of a year or two after it should have happened... To be able to stand there in the arena and see Vanderlei do his walk and then stand in the ring waiting for Chuck to walk and they turn the lights off for Chuck's walkout music and Vanderlei's just in the dark, you know, standing there, I don't know, four feet in front of me doing that little wrist shake thing, you know, with nobody looking at him. And I was just like, I cannot believe this is about to happen.
It felt like it was one of those things that was never going to happen and it did, you know?
Yeah. Do you think that Vanderlei and Chuck would have been different if it was in Japan?
In Japan, for sure it would have. I still give Chuck a really good chance. I mean, Chuck was a killer at that time, but Vanderlei on all of his vitamins at that era was frightening.
In the ring, Vanderlei couldn't corner him. It was harder. Like he, he hadn't worked that much with the cage. Um, and not, not that like, I don't know. I just felt he couldn't corner him and crook up. Might've had the same, the same problems a little bit. But, uh,
yeah, like he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't able to, to, to walk someone down and get them to the corner and throw that high left kick and watch them slide down the turnbuckle. You know, when you have that as rounded, not that the UFC cage is round, cause it's definitely not, but there's definitely a lot more of a, an area to slide out the side, you know?
Yeah. Cause Vanderlei had his best success when he, he was able to like have his back against the cage and then he could actually like kind of control the distance a little more. That fight was disappointing. That fight was disappointing.
Yeah.
in my opinion it
was it was I mean like the fight itself wasn't great but like I just think of that moment like Vanderlei in the dark doing that wrist warm-up you know what I mean with nobody looking at him I mean it was a UFC crowd I don't even know how familiar they were with Vanderlei you know but yeah it was that that was pretty exciting and you know I got to see a lot of people win their first belts you know I got to be there you know and when George Sapier won a title you know I got to be there when, when,
you know, BJ won his first UFC title and when Chuck Liddell won his first title. And, you know, those, those are pretty cool things to be there for, you know, and I know that stuff still is happening now, but, you know, similar to music, you kind of get caught in an era that means the most to you. And, uh, you know, even though by today's standards, maybe those, some of those guys aren't, you know, the world's greatest fighters, um, They kind of capture an era that really had my interest.
Yeah, I feel you on the build-up to things, like being the special moments, too.
When you have an event every week, it's just kind of like, that one happened, let's do the next one. That one happened, let's do the next one. That era of the UFC, they were doing five a year. So it's like you had long gaps in between them, and it's just like they had to load it up. If you got a spot on a UFC card, even with the dark prelims when they still had those where only the live audience would see the first three fights, that was a big deal to get one of those spots.
There wasn't many of them.
Yeah, I remember. I mean, I remember the anticipation like, Cause MMA weekly would like do the 10 fighters in 10 days or whatever. It was like two weeks of interviews, like leading up to the UFC. Like, yeah, it was wild. But even like, even what I was talking about was you, you latching onto that Vanderlei moment in the dark.
Like I feel the same way about finally getting to see Sakuraba live, even though it was like the hoist Gracie rematch, you know, there was obviously a disappointing fight, but getting to see Sakuraba entrance is like, good God.
Oh
yeah. Thank God I got to see it. You know? Um, But, yeah. Yeah, and for UFC moments, mine's not historically significant either, although it was for the uncrowned lightweight title. But Eve Edwards, Josh Thompson, that kick. Oh, yeah. That's right. First fight. Yeah, you sat there with Ido at that one. Yeah, and there was probably only, like, 3,000 people in the arena. And just, like, seeing that as, like, your first live fight like that was just, like, Jesus Christ.
Like, this is gnarly, you know. But, yeah. If people want to hear more of that, hit me up, and we'll go more, because you said we weren't going to talk about it, and we still probably did 25 minutes on it. We can talk about it forever, because we're nerds of the era. Or at least I'm a nerd. You were a participator.
No, I was a nerd, man. I love it.
Yeah, I absolutely love it. You are doing a handful of bands right now that I absolutely... think are awesome. Well, I love the band at 7 Inch. Lots. I was so glad you did that one. That fucking rules. And then, of course, Rod of Correction. Shout out Greg from the pod. Totally rad project with him and Colin. And I actually know everyone's name, but my apologies. And then Skullcrack is probably the most active band. Is that correct? I feel like they're always two or three shows.
I mean, I'm, I'm saying this a few months into a pandemic, so it doesn't feel like anybody's an active band right now, but, um, yeah, I mean, they, they're down to play every moment that they're not working, you know?
Yeah. I feel like I just see them on like every fucking flyer. So that's super rad. Um, Ursula, Shadow Josiah, that was like a cool tie-in. I was like, oh shit, Josiah's on Indecision, that fucking rules.
Yeah.
Josiah actually has a stay gold tattoo.
Oh, how's that for a stitch back? Um,
yeah. How's that?
Yeah. And then you just did the power alone record, which is, is awesome. So like, do you feel, you still feel the same? Like you're excited about music as you were?
Oh, 100%, 100%.
I mean, you know, uh, not to dip back to the MMA, but when, uh, I started getting my first, uh, paying gigs in mma was right around the time that the cds were starting to collapse you know um the label wasn't quite making uh enough because you know for probably i don't know let's say five six years the label was my only source of income um and when i say only source of income uh I wasn't getting a paycheck, but it was paying the rent on the house that we were all living in and allowing me to do
the label full-time. Once record sales started dipping and that landslide started kind of happening, and I wasn't trying to get out. It wasn't like, oh, no, I'm not going to be able to do this. It's just by dumb luck, uh, MMA was starting to kind of come up and I was actually getting offered like, Hey, you know, we can pay you 300 bucks to do this, or, you know, can you do this? We could fly you out for a week and things like that.
They just kind of like intersected each other one on the way up and one on the way down. Uh, so I started taking more, uh, MMA gigs cause I kind of had to for the money. Um, and it kind of, well, not kind of, it became my job and indecision became part-time hobby for me. But I never stopped doing it completely. But who would have guessed, you know, a year or two into my MMA tenure that the sport would blow up in the way that it did where I was working every week, traveling every week.
So I had maybe one or two weekends a year that I wasn't traveling or didn't have like a local thing to do. So it basically removed my ability to go to shows. So for like a good decade, I would go to like a one show here, you know, a Tuesday night show here or a Thursday night show here, you know, like sprinkled throughout the year. So you don't feel as connected when you can't You're not really seeing what's happening, you know?
And then in 2017, Sherdog, who I had like a full-time job with, let me go. And for the first time in a long time, I started having weekends free to go to shows again. And it was... It was pretty exciting, you know, because like everything was new to me again. I didn't know a lot of the people that were I mean, this is a 10 year gap. You know, it's not like, oh, well, let's see.
So and so still doing it like this is all new people and people that have been around for a decade that I just have missed, you know, and it was just. so fun to kind of be able to just like enjoy it and love it again and just go to shows and take photos, which is what I always loved doing until it felt like a chore. Um,
yeah. And I think that it's, it's also good timing with like, uh, the program skate shop, like starting to do shows. Cause it's like, you get to see all these bands on like the realist level. Right. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know. It's like you're, you're face to face with them. You can talk to them. You can see them. Like there's no, there's no them relying on like a nice sound system to sound good. It's this stripped down. It's like seeing someone in the PCH or the Shay, you know?
And so like to come back into it on the realist, like ground level is, is so cool.
Yeah. I mean, that's the only, that's, that's the level I like, you know what I mean? Like, uh, yeah. I mean, if, if there's no community around it, then it's just, it's just fucking music, you know? Like, What does that mean? Might as well just go see Oasis. Yeah. The Gallaghers don't give a fuck about me.
True, true. But yeah. Oh, you know what? I skipped over your most important band, 06 Retaliate. But that's okay. That's okay. But yeah, I think that... The MMA stuff is crazy. It did take you out of it for a little while, and it's just because of the travel schedule, because...
But it was able to give me a really fresh perspective to coming back into it, you know? I don't know, being able to just appreciate having a conversation with somebody at a show that I don't know, you know? And it's not like it's... It doesn't take effort, you know? It does take effort, you know? Like, I'm not... it's hard to like go to a show where you're, you know, the oldest person by a pretty large margin and you don't know anybody.
And there's already like these circles in there to just like stand next to someone and be like, Hey man, I'm Dave. You know, like that's, it's good for me, you know? And it's, I don't know. That's, that's what I love about hardcore, man. It's, it's always been about the people. Like the bands are important and records are important. And, but I don't know if the, if, if the people aren't, worthy of you having a conversation with at a, at a skate shop. Uh, what's the point?
Yeah, no, I mean, the community aspect is huge and it's always a, it's always been a spot to meet solid like-minded dudes, you know what I mean? Like I've, I've gotten a lot of lifetime friendships out of it, you know? So, so, but yeah, um, I'm so glad we got to do this. You're obviously one of the most important people in my journey of hardcore, um, enabling me to put out records. So I'm so glad to get you on here. I wanted to get you earlier, but it's hard scheduling and so forth, you know?
Of course.
But yeah, is there
anything? I'm glad I finally got to make it.
Yeah, me too. Do you feel like there's anything that we totally brushed over that we should have touched on other than the MMA stuff?
Well, the MMA stuff, I wouldn't even... say we needed to brush up on any of it but uh no i i feel like i feel like we covered a lot of it you know
okay you feel like you've been well represented
i do i feel like i've been well represented
all right appreciate that um cool well thanks so much for your time dave
of course pleasure yeah thank you