Alright, this week on the pod, it is the one, the only, Ron Baird, the singer of Stalag 13. And anyone that knows my trajectory in punk and hardcore knows how important Stalag 13 was to me. Especially that first 12-inch EP. You know what it's called. So that's coming up. If you would like to support the show... Please like, rate, and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And please do that. It's just a very simple, easy way to help the pod. You know, give it five stars. Give it a like.
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I'm from fucking Oxnard, bitch. What? What is this? What is this, Oxford?
185 miles south a hardcore punk rock podcast
all right this week on the pod we have uh ron baird from stalling 13 and uh thanks so much for joining us
yeah no problem man thanks for um having me on your podcast that's that's pretty cool
yeah and you're living out where now
So I live in Melbourne, Australia. I guess the second most populous city in Australia. So it's in Victoria on the southeast coast of Australia.
Okay. And for a while, were you living out on the west side? No,
no, no. I've never lived up there. I've lived here pretty much. Since 1989, yeah. It
was
all in Melbourne. Although, I've been back to the U.S. quite a bit. Actually, I lived in the U.S. for six months last year because my wife was on sabbatical leave at UC Berkeley.
Cool. So, Ron, what year did you get into punk and hardcore?
Oh, God, man. Okay, now I'm stretching my memory here, but I would say roughly around about 1979, 1979. Okay, and
do you remember how you came across it?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was one of those phenomenons you started to see. I'd heard of the Sex Pistols. I mean, it really was. I went to the supermarket with my mom, and I was looking at an issue. I think it was Cream Magazine or something, and there was an article on the Sex Pistols, and I'd read that, and it mentioned The Clash and The Damned and a couple of other bands, and I was like, wow. okay, that's it, I'm punk. It just captured my imagination, you know.
I suppose I've been, I don't know, looking for an identity. I was, you know, I'd always been really into music, you know. I was really into Ted Nugent, Cheap Trick at the time. And, yeah, I don't know, something about, you know, punk, you know, that kind of, I guess, gritty street kind of, you know, that FU culture kind of grabbed my attention, you know.
Yeah, so the attitude grabbed you first, and then do you remember what you listened to, like what you sunk your teeth into first?
No, it was definitely all that English punk I just mentioned. I think I went down to the local mall, and the first record I bought was... It's a Clash, like a little 10-inch EP with Bank Robber on it and White Riot, you know, and... Yeah, that was the first record I bought. And then it was, yeah, a collection. I bought Anarchy in the UK. I bought The Damned, Machine Gun Etiquette. And then from there, I started branching out.
I think the first kind of US punk record I bought was X. The famous one with the flaming X on the cover. I think it was titled Los Angeles, remember? That's right. Yeah, that was my... Yeah. And that was actually my first real punk show, was actually seeing X in Santa Barbara at the State Street Theater.
Cool.
And that's where I met Ismael Hernandez and Jaime Hernandez, like Jaime from Love and Rockets and Ismael from Dr. No and various other bands. And they really kind of got me into this thing.
Yeah, and where were you living at that time?
I mean, funnily enough, I don't even come from Oxnard. I'm from, um, Portland, California, which is right. It's kind of surrounded by Oxnard, but it's a little, it's a little town right on the beach there. So, um, yeah, that's where I was living at the time. Yeah.
Yeah. And who do you, who do you go up to that X show with? Like you have other friends that are already in a punk rock?
No, um, nah, I mean, you know, you know, cause I was pretty young, man. I don't know. I think, uh, shit 79, uh, I've probably been about 15, 14 or 15. So my mom drove me. Awesome. Like the most, the most. I
don't know. I think that's cool because that means that you had to like vouch to your mom that you were that big of a fan, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Look, my, my parents were pretty cool. You know, you know, they're very lefty and progressive and, And look, and I was the last, I'm the youngest of five kids, so I think, you know, I kind of got an easy ride. It was like, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever, you know, you're into it, yeah, cool, thank you.
That's so cool. And so how did you meet, like, Ismael and his brothers?
Funnily enough, it was like, I went to the show, you know, I worked my way, you know, I was right in the pit and right up the front and just, I mean, I don't even think I marched, I think I just kind of got right to the front of the stage and was just in awe of, you know, this music. And, and then it was, it wasn't until after the show, I, my, I think my mom and I, we stopped at seven 11 and, um, you know, to grab a Coke or something.
And, and, um, and East mile and, and, and I, man, some others were, you know, I guess doing the same thing. And, um, I think I was East mile. It said to me like, ah, Hey, you know, um, you know, I think I've seen you, you know, walking down Ventura road and, And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Ismael spoke to me, and he said, oh, meet Ismael, meet my brother. And so it was just, yeah, 7-11. I kind of met those guys there, yeah.
Yeah, that's so cool. And so then it's a couple years of going to shows before you decide to do your own band.
Yeah, pretty much, you know, uh, you know, initially a lot of parties and, um, I mean, I have to give a shout out to Mike Hickey too. So, um, so he's, he's Mark Hickey's, uh, little brother from aggression and he, I was, um, I went to junior high with him and, um, and, and, and he kind of, you know, he introduced me to Mark as well. So this was all kind of happening at the same time, like around the next show as well. And so, um, I, um, I went to a party in Ventura.
So initially it was a lot of parties. So I went to a party in Ventura where aggression was playing and that's where I met a whole heap of other people. So yeah, mainly parties and shows. Um, um, yeah, for, for a couple of years to 79, 80, probably 81. Yeah. And 81, I was really thinking, yeah, yeah, I want to do something, you know, like it's you know, cause I mean, that's the whole thing about the culture. It's like, Hey, you know, you don't have to just watch your idols.
You can be your own idol.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no barrier to entry. That's a great thing about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Or do you, you
know, no, just going back. I like to talk about the early days because I wasn't there. And, uh, a lot of, a lot of the listeners weren't. So, uh, any other standout shows like in those early eighties and, and what, what was a show like in Santa Barbara? Uh, in like 1980? And what is like a house party show in Ventura like in 1981?
Like, you know, just awesome. You know, the energy, like in Santa Barbara, It was the Goleta Valley Community Center. And then a little bit later, like this place called La Casa de la Raza on the east side of Santa Barbara. And the shows were just, man, full on energy. And probably be like if I say a highlight show, you know, I don't know. It was a bad brand. And so it might not be 80, maybe 81 shows. And the Bad Brands played Goleta Valley Community Center, and that was just off-tap, man.
Like, just the energy. Yeah, you know, it's just crazy, man. But, like, you know, everyone looking after each other, but just, you know, the mosh pit is so intense. And, yeah, just that high energy. octane high energy. It was
just so fun, man.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I can't imagine getting to see the Bad Brains in, like, 81. That's insane.
Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah. And great human beings, you know. Like, I mean, I know shit's come out after about, you know, like, because I know there was some shit went down between them and the big boys around there.
Yeah. That was a little later. We can think that they were 100% pure when they played Santa Barbara in
81. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, just, I mean, just total energy, total, you know, I just felt alive, man. You know, that was like some of my happiest times, you know. Yeah, just being a chef. And, you know, in the parties, man, I mean, it depended on the party, you know, it was... you know, somewhere there was bands playing. It was really cool. But often it was, you know, it's just kind of hanging out and talking and sharing stories and, you know, and sharing knowledge.
And I guess in many respects, looking back, you know, it's kind of like learning the subculture, you know, you're, you know, cause I mean, one of the places we used to hang out a lot in Ventura was Art and Joey. So Art Pena and Joey Pena. And they were kind of stalwarts of the scene, you know, a fair bit old. I mean, a fair bit old.
I don't even know how old they are, but you know, like i said i would have been 15 they had their own apartments and jobs so they probably would have been in their 20s you know sure and um you know we used to just go and hang out there man till all hours of the night you know like two three four in the morning sleep there you know and um you know i'm just talking shit and and hanging out and then other parties you know there's bands playing and you know you know i'm kind of just a real local
energy but you know and i used to have heaps of parties at my house like my parents were really down with with the whole scene and were, you know, like really, you know, open and friendly with all my friends. And, you know, like, you know, they knew, I mean, they pretty much knew everybody, you know, I mean, Big Bob from Aggression used to live and we had a granny flat behind our house, like a little small place behind and him and Cece used to live there for quite a while.
And they, Aggression used to practice there. And they'd always been Dr. No for a little while too, which is probably why. Oh, I guess a very obscure fact. I was in Dr. Now for a little while, for a few months.
And did you sing?
Yeah, I sang, yeah, yeah.
Cool. What year would that have been? Oh,
God, probably, yeah, 80, 81, around
there. Yeah, so like infancy. Yeah. The infancy of Dr. Now.
Yeah, it was... It was, it was at that stage. It was, I mean, Carl Toucher was Dr. No. So it was Carl Toucher, Ismael Hernandez. So Carl Toucher on, on guitar and Ismael on bass. And then they had a guy named Robin, Robin, Robin, something on drums.
And then
I sang for a little while.
Sure. When Brandon was on the pod, I think he went through, it was like, I was the fifth, the ninth, the 17th singer, Dr. No. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. They had a lot of them. They had a lot of them.
Yeah.
I mean, I can't even remember, you know. I remember there was some guy, Mark, for a while. He was kind of a, I don't know, a goth. He looked like Morris, actually. It was fun, the leather pants. He sang with them for a while, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know what happened to that dude, but.
But that's how you got your chops a little bit. Sorry? You got your chops a little bit, though, like in that, if that's the first time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was kind of the first time I went, oh, hey, this is, you know, I can do this shit, you know. Because I'd always, you know, like I said, I was always into music. I was always singing, you know. And, you know, I used to play trombone and that song, you know, in the junior high band and shit like that. But yeah, that was kind of my first foray into taking a mic. And then I played in a band that was for a little while, for probably about six months or so.
It was Ismael Hernandez on bass, Rick Heller, the well-known original drummer from Dr. No. And so it was Yeah, I think Ismael might have played guitar. Because I know Jaime played bass. Or maybe Gilbert played guitar, actually. His other brother, Gilbert.
And
it was this band called Ape Sex. And it was kind of a jokey band. I remember we played at a party. I think we just kind of like they started jamming and I picked up the mic and we, we just started, you know, we kind of just make up shit. And, and then we, we actually were doing it as a band for a little while. And I remember we would, you know, we would just make up crap as we went. Like there was, you know, we had a song called there's a big light bulb in Jaime's living room.
Cause he had this big light bulb. And that was just kind of fun. Like, you know, and I think we just played a, played a couple of
parties. You never recorded.
Yeah. And, Nah, we never recorded. So this would have been, yeah, about 80, 81.
That's a pretty savage name though. You know, if you like, if you viscerally think about ape sex, you know.
Yeah. Ape sex. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was when I came up with it. Yeah.
That's great. Yeah. He was, yeah, he was classic. Yeah. So are you, are you a part of, of forming Stog or do they form and then they find you?
Okay. No, I, you know, this is one thing I'd like to, you know, get out in the public. I mean, I think it kind of is known, but, um, you know, you know, you know, I'm totally happy with those guys still playing, but I mean, I just want it on record.
I am Scalic 13, you know, I mean, it sounds arrogant or whatever, but it was, you know, kind of my band, my vehicle, my, you know, vision, you know, I was the, the, the founding member, the driver, the manager, the merchandiser, you know, I did kind of everything for that band. And I mean, the funny thing is, is like this band that's kind of known that we recorded with. So, you know, Blake and Larry and John Morris.
And it was Dave Casillas, but he's, you know, long battle with drugs that he still has. And that's why they booted him out this time again. But that's kind of the second iteration of the band. The first band was my really good mate. Eric, what was his name? You know, my good mate. I can't even remember his name. God, what
can I remember? We can say a dude named Eric.
Yeah, a dude named Eric. Not Eric. Sorry. Fuck, man. I'm really kind of stretching my brain here. Carl Winrich was his name.
Okay.
Carl. Yeah, so Carl Winrich was on guitar. And there was a guy who's still around, Chuck Collison, but he went by Chuck Steak at the time. So Chuck Steak was on bass and this guy Kevin Lundberg on drums. So that's the original Stoic 13. And we actually recorded and it was like a demo tape with about, I don't know, like 20 songs on it. And a few of those songs came out on the album. Dr. Strange re-release, the CD re-release.
Okay, and it was also not 20, but maybe nine songs or so that got bootlegged onto a 7-inch of your demo as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Okay, so that demo's with that lineup.
So that demo's with that lineup, yeah. So that was, yeah. So yeah, Carl Winrich on guitar. Chuck Steak on bass, Kevin Lundberg on drums, and myself on vocals. And that was... It was me and... Me and Carl started the band because we were hanging out a lot in kind of 81. And we used to practice at his dad's house in North Oxnard, or downtown Oxnard. He lived in this kind of nice old colonial house. And yeah, it was... Yeah, so it was initially me and Carl.
And then I think maybe... I think Israel from False Confessions might have played bass for a little while or might have even sang. Because initially I was the drummer.
So I
was drumming. And I was drumming. Yeah, Carl was on guitar. And then, yeah, I think Israel, either playing bass or might have been singing. Kind of all vague. And I remember we played a party with that lineup where I was drumming. And then I think Israel left or something or another. And basically we couldn't find a singer. We'd gotten Chuck on bass. And we couldn't find a singer. And I said, ah, you know what, fuck it.
I'm going to sing because, you know, I'm kind of a, you know, a gregarious out there sort of person. And I don't want to be stuck behind the drum kit. So I started singing and we got this guy, Kevin Lundberg from Ventura. And so that was the, that was the first lineup. And we played, I mean, that lineup was about a year, probably, you know, into 82, end of 82.
And we played our first, you know, kind of big show up at the, The roller drum, so the Thunderbirds roller drum, so roller, you know, roller derby establishment up in East Los Angeles with Circle One organized this big two-day kind of festival. And, you know, I think the Circle Jerks were playing and, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, like a whole bunch of bands. And, yeah, we played with that line up there.
Was your demo out at that point? Was your demo out at that
point? Yeah, our demo was out at that point. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, you know, like, I was reproducing that thing as quick as I could and just kind of giving it to anybody and everybody.
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit. One of them
made it to Brazil. Okay. Sorry, go ahead.
No, I want to talk about the demo. Just moving back a little bit. So going in and recording it, where did you record the demo at?
So we recorded it at this studio in East Ventura. West Ventura, West Ventura. East Ventura. I think East Ventura, called Goldmine Studios. And it was just, you know, like a recording studio in a, like a kind of like an industrial estate. You know, I think there was some, you know, panel beater shops around, you know, like, you know, auto repair shops. And so it was kind of good. They tended to, you know, operate at in the evening. So all these businesses were closed.
Yeah. And that's the same place. That's where Illrepute did their demo as well.
Yeah, yeah, I think pretty much everybody at that time did their, because they had a deal, like, it was, you know, like, you know, 200 bucks, you know, mixed down as much as, you know, like eight hours of studio time. Yeah. You know, so as much songs as you could kind of fit in and mixed and mastered, you know, for 200 bucks or 300 bucks or something, you know, it was pretty cheap for the time.
And so, yeah, that's where we recorded our demo, yeah, and I think, you know, there was quite a few songs, because our songs were pretty short then, you know, like, you know, we were kind of Yeah,
well, Stalag, especially for the demo, I mean, you're definitely influenced by the early US hardcore stuff. More so than like, you know, Dr. No is a little more influenced by the second wave of the UK, like the Discharge type stuff. Yeah. And Aggression is maybe a little more... I don't know. It's the first wave of American hardcore as well.
Well, they were a bit older, too. They had more rock influences and stuff. We were little kids. I was probably the oldest person in the band at that stage. I was like 18.
Yeah, and you just come in blazing.
You
come in blazing with these super short, fast songs.
Yeah. And look, I'll tell you who I kind of just loved and emulated at the time was was definitely Husker Du. Like, fucking loved them. Loved them. Black Flag, you know, loved them. Minor Threat, you know, totally into them. You know, a lot of that East Coast hardcore. You know, The Necros, SSD, Marginal Man, Government Issue, all of those bands. So that's really kind of what, you know, where I kind of... you know, sunk my teeth into. That's what I was listening to on high rotation, you know.
And even bands like the Middle Class, you know, I got that Middle Class 7-inch and just that short, sharp burst of just, you know, just, you know, just gritty reality, you know, and the lyrics just pure kind of social commentary, you know. The Middle Class are one of the unsung heroes of, you know, Southern California punk, you know.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's debatable of what the first hardcore record is, right? It's either the Badlands or that middle-class 7-inch of who went that fast.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, so that's kind of, yeah, definitely. Like, I mean, I always say, like, you know, yeah, I say I'm a punk, but I always say, you know, hardcore. You know, I mean, for me, that was like that first... It was that transition from punk into hardcore. So it was kind of, you know, we were leaving that kind of 77 vibe behind because that really wasn't my thing. I mean, I was really into bands.
You know, I mean, I really liked and appreciated bands like the Gears and, you know, the Controllers and all that. But that was really kind of a particular type of Hollywood kind of 77 influence band. you know, American punk rock. Whereas I really kind of, you know, say that was the juncture, you know, kind of 82 was that, yeah, we were kind of, you know, this is hardcore, you know, and that, that's, you know, kind of where I positioned myself, you know?
Yeah. And are you running with the straightest thing at this point at the demo time?
So at the demo time, yeah, like it's, it's, um, Initially, look, you know, I'll tell you initially I had a short, sharp stint of, you know, kind of alcohol abuse and drug abuse. You know, there was a period, you know, it was very short. I remember probably 12 to 18 months, you know, probably 14, 15 into, you know, into my late 15. And, you know, that early entry where I was just, you know, Drunk all the time, high all the time, on LSD a lot.
And, you know, it was, you know, and it was like a friend of mine. Well, John Fenn, you know, he was a really close friend of mine. And, you know, and he was always straight. Like, he didn't become straight. He just never drank or never did drugs, you know. He was just a, you know, surf kid who was clean and, you know, very, you know, kind of athletic, you know, physical guy.
And, you know, and he was kind of like, you know, encouraged me, hey, man, maybe you should, you know, not be doing that shit. And it was when, though, when I heard Minor Threat, you know, like that first seven inch, it was, you know, I mean, I've talked about this before on another interview, but it was like a, you know, a religious experience. You know, that's how I can really put it. It was like an epiphany, like.
You know, I heard, you know, the song Straight Edge and I was like, I think from that moment I said, I'm not drinking, I'm not smoking, I'm not doing this shit, you know. And so, yeah, so going into that recording. So I think when I started Stalag 13, I was probably still, you know, drinking. But yeah, definitely by the time we hit the studio to do that, I was, yeah, you know, kind of claiming Straight Edge,
yeah. Yeah, and Stalag is the first Straight Edge band out of California, is that correct?
That is, I think, yeah, a documented fact. I don't know if you know Ryan Hansler. He was a straight-edge punk from the Denver scene, and he's a sociologist now, and he wrote an ethnographic study kind of in the 90s, but of the Denver hardcore scene and the straight-edge subculture. And he has us listed in his – he's got a timeline of – straight edge bands and he has us listed as the first, you know, California or West coast straight edge band.
So I, I think, uh, we can definitely, um, you know, claim that. Yeah. Cause we, you know, we came before, you know, form choice and,
um, of course,
you know? Yeah.
So, so the, the,
you know, who are great guys. Yeah.
Well, I think, I think that it goes stalling. Number one, America's hardcore is second. And then Justice League.
Oh, it's Justice League, yeah, I was going to say.
Who are you thinking?
Well, probably, yeah, definitely American Parkour and Justice League probably at the same time, yeah.
Yeah, and then the Unities and the Uniform Choices come.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Unity were, again, another, you know, they were an awesome thing.
Yeah, Seven Inch is amazing.
You know, yeah.
And everyone, if you don't have the Unity 7-inch, you've got to go buy it. IndecisionRecords.com. It's still in press. So send Dave your money. Oh, really? I've
still got it. I've got an original.
You're the man. Yeah. I've
got a lot of sitting around on a lot of originals. I've got an original pressing of In My Eyes, an original pressing of the Initial Minus at 7-inch. I had an initial pressing of The Kids Will Have Their Say by SST, and some bastard stole it. I got the sleeve. It was like my daughter was going through a vinyl the other day, and she goes, hey, how come there's no record in this? And I go, because some scumbag stole it at a party.
Oh, so bad. It's terrible. So do you see the stalling popularity? You put out the demo. You're pushing it everywhere. Well, first off, what is the art on the demo? I'm assuming it's not the same as the bootleg. Is it a Hernandez brother drawing?
No, on the bootleg is a Brian Walsby. That's a Brian Walsby
drawing. I don't think it's a Walsby. I think it's a Hernandez brother. It's kind of like that Death Rock-looking band, and they're kind of fighting the crowd.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, look, to be quite honest, I don't have a copy of the bootleg. I've seen it.
Yeah. I'll send you a photo. I don't have a copy. Yeah. So what did the demo look like?
So the demo, man, it was just a cassette, man. Like we never had,
you didn't do covers. You just pass on a cassette.
I think, I think when I, when I, I think I did a photo copy cover that, you know, just to kind of start, you know, that was it. That's
sick.
You know, it had, it had that um you know it had that you know that germanic you know kind of writing you know that and that was you know all high man man because he i mean you know he did everything he's like the unsung well i mean you know he is he is sung but like you know the hero of of nardcore man i mean he kind of did all this art for free and you know like sometimes i feel really bad like i would go you know i'd love to just kind of gift him some cash or something because I mean, you
know, really, he's kind of gotten nothing from that. You know, and it was punk, man. Nothing was, you know, we didn't think about copyright and all that shit. We just put stuff out, you know. And, yeah, I remember when I approached, because we had a couple of different styles of writing it at the time.
Like, we had this kind of Husker Du rip-off one where it was kind of all black and then in kind of block writing with Scalic 13 and then this kind of black block was crumbling and kind of cracked through it kind of like you know how Husker Du had to crack through their name and um you know but that kind of didn't stick and there was you know it was really that that kind of you know that riding that's on in control that kind of stuck and I mean um and Jaime had done that pretty early like in the
piece probably 82, 83. Cause the, I mean, you know, now, I mean, you might know more than me, but I'm pretty sure the album came out in 84, the EP, you know, in control.
Yeah. 12 inch EP in 84.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was early 84. Cause we are, I remember doing the like lyrical overdubs and kind of December of the, of 83. Okay.
So yeah, The next thing that comes out after the demo is the song Selfish. It's on the We Got Power compilation LP in 83. Is that just a song off the demo, or did you go record that separately?
No, I think it's just off the demo.
Yeah, and that's a really good early Mystic comp. I mean, 1983 is early for them, and it's curated by the guys that did that zine. Do
you
see your popularity surge a little bit after the demos out there and you have this song on a big compilation?
Yeah, hell yeah. Yeah, totally.
And you're playing what circuit?
And also, yeah.
You're playing... And
also...
Go ahead. Sorry.
Go ahead, go
ahead. No, the phone stuff's hard. We step on each other. I haven't... I'm still an amateur. I'm trying to figure out the
timing. No, no, no. It's just good synergy and talking, you know. I mean, look, because I get, you know, so excited talking about this shit.
No, I'm excited too. I mean, you're one of my favorite bands ever, so...
Thank you. Thank you.
What circuit is Stalag playing? The demo comes out... You do this song. You're playing kind of Santa Barbara to L.A. Do you ever go down to San Diego?
No, we never got down. I don't think we ever played San Diego, to be quite honest. We were playing deep into Orange County. I can't even remember. Like Seamus O'Brien's. I remember I think it took us like two hours to get there. I don't even know where that is. I don't know if it's Torrance or... Anaheim or past Anaheim, you know, somebody will probably know, but there was this place called Seamus O'Brien. We played there with articles of faith. And that was, um, that was fucking awesome.
There was like 30 people there and it was like a fucking awesome show.
Yeah.
And, um, we got interviewed that night and flip for flip side.
Oh, cool.
Sal and HUD interviewed us that night. Yeah.
Yeah. That's
really cool. Well,
I
mean, that really fucking, that, So that's true. So to answer your question about what we were playing, we were playing mercilessly. Like we were all about, I mean, we weren't touring.
I mean, as far as, you know, going interstate, but we were playing like, you know, as far as to the outer regions of Orange County, um, you know, anywhere in that Southern California, greater Los Angeles, you know, up in Santa Barbara, up in Goleta, Ventura, Oxnard, you know, um, know of san gabriel you know and i mean some of the venues but we really played like at um at uh what is everything escaping you know in hollywood the famous
kind
of the catholic that was like our our practice room practically apart from my parents garage like we would play there You know, shit, sometimes like two, three times a week, you know, like Wednesday night, you know, whatever. We played there so many times. Cathay de Grand, but also the Sportsman's Valley or the, in the San Fernando Valley, there was this place called the Sportsman's Lodge.
And this really dodgy part of the, like the East San Fernando Valley, you know, with a lot of gangs, man, a lot of homeboys. But a great venue. And we played there. We played there with Seven Seconds. We played there with SSD. We played there with a lot of bands. So we were just playing mercilessly. Pretty much just that kind of greater LA, kind of Southern California area. But we were playing definitely... Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then, you know, often, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday.
So it was really, we just had this kind of surge of just, you know, prolifically playing. And then the other thing I was really into was the DIY thing. So, you know, I'm like made stickers, just kind of photocopied on, you know, double-sided A4, you know, and actually laminated them with, you know, like book contact and then cut them. And so I would spend, you know, days just kind of pumping out these stickers.
and just giving them away to everybody and giving cassettes away, you know, because my brother at that stage was working at, you know, one of these, like, a $2 shop, those variety stores, and he used to pinch cassettes for me. Like, he'd bring me boxes of cassettes, so I would just duplicate, and I would just give them to, you know, anybody. Like, here's a sticker, have a, you know, have a cassette, have a, you
know.
And, yeah, and it was just that really kind of, I guess, aggressive direct marketing. Yeah. You know, and just playing all the time, you know?
Yeah.
And so when we were at shows, when we would go to shows, because we were really, you know, active as well as far as, you know, going to see bands, you know, like I loved going to see bands. So usually when we'd go to see a band, we'd be flyering as well, you know, so handing out flyers, handing out stickers.
And it was really that that I think kind of just really kind of gave us this upsurge of support because, you know, You know, like looking back and, you know, talking to people and having been interviewed, you know, I just go, you know, at that time, you know, we just had this huge following, you know, where we would start to, you know, go where we would play a whole show in L.A.
And there would be, you know, there'd be like, you know, hundreds of people there to see us, you know, and the gigs started getting bigger, you know, and yeah, it was, you know, it was intense, you know. um, and also, you know,
well, we talk about like one of the reasons why we all get into the music is, you know, there's not that much of a barrier to entry. Like the people in the bands are the kids. And so maybe that resonated with people. If you're always at the shows, you're younger guys, you know, it's like whether you're playing or not, you're just always there. And if, uh, if you're likable characters, you're an easy band to, to latch onto.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Cause I remember, um, Like the guys from Justice League, they just came up to me one time after the show and said, oh man, we love your band, we're in the band Justice League, get me a tape, get me a t-shirt. And we started playing shows with those guys. And again, they were a bit younger. It was kind of cool. When I was in Berkeley last year, I caught up with Ron Hoffman, not as much as I would have liked to. I think I only saw him twice.
And we had all these plans to go to shows and stuff, but I was super busy because I was finishing my Ph.D. And, um, yeah, so it was just kind of had all these riding deadlines and, and, um, you know, sorry, not last year was 2018, actually 2018. I'm kind of getting, cause we're in 2020 now. So yeah, it was in the kind of July to December, 2018. Cause Ryan Hoffman from justice league lives up in Danville.
No, they're just kind of just 20 minutes out of, um, out of um berkeley and so yeah like i said we caught up and had lunch and you know and and that was awesome and then we were we were going to go and see a strive show and he hooked up you know us getting into free it was you know it was at the um what's that famous
gilman
punk venue and gilman yeah i was at the gilman and and you know and and then i ended up like i couldn't go because i had this rotting deadline i had to have a chapter done My supervisor was like, you've got to have this chapter done. Those guys in Justice League were just awesome. I guess I'd like to see ourselves as we were very friendly, open, approachable guys. I was always down for anybody supporting people coming up and And I remember Fat Black from NoFX, man.
He used to always come to our shows. And I remember when he started NoFX, he came to see us at some show in
Orange County.
And he's going, hey, Ron, man, I started this band, man, called NoFX. And I'm like, awesome. Because before that, he was really into the scene. And he had fanzines and some early record thing and promoting shows. He was always really active. And I remember when he started NoFX, and I was like, that's so cool, Mike, you know, that's awesome. And you know, I'm like, they've gone on to fuck, you know, just be huge.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you start having a little bit of member changes cause the sound changes. There's a big difference between the demo and the in control 12 inch. Um,
yeah, totally.
Yeah. What, what goes into that? Do you think does some of the, who's writing the songs on the demo compared to who's writing the songs on the LP musically?
Okay. All the songs on the demo were written by Carl Winrich and Chuck. and Chuck, Chuck Collison, Chuck, Chuck Stank. So he, he wrote, um, yeah, he, he wrote a few of them, but yeah, mainly it was like Carl and I were kind of those, you know, like, you know, we would, we would go to his house, we would sit down. So this is for the demo. We'd go to his house, sit down, you know, just kind of jam it out. And he'd go, Oh yeah, I've got this riff.
And, you know, and I was just always writing for me, like lyrics are nothing but poetry. And I was just always writing, you know? And, um, And, you know, and then I'd go, oh yeah, I've got this, you know, bit that fits that. And, you know, and so that, that's, that's who wrote the songs there. And then, I mean, what happened with, you know, I'll just give you a quick, you know, quick for me, because I know I like to talk a lot. We, we went to some party.
Oh, was that, it was that Jimmy Callahan, the bass player for Ill Repeated. His parents were away. um, you know, I don't know, on holiday or something. And he had, you know, there, it was like, there was a party there every night. And, um, we went to this party and, um, and Chuck and Carl were there and, and they were both off their faces on LSD, you know, high fucking cut.
And, um, and I, you know, I didn't know this initially, you know, and, and I get there and I'm trying to talk like, oh yeah, we, you know, we need to do this. I was kind of trying to have a bit of a band meeting at this party. And they're like, you know, Fucking laughing, fucking up. And then they start running from me and hiding from me. And I'm like,
what
the fuck? And I go, these guys are just, you know, they were just, you know, really upsetting me. And I just go, you know what? You guys, you're out of the band. Fuck off. I don't want to see you. You're gone. You know, so it was literally, you know, in two seconds flat, it's just me and I've got a drummer. And then, ironically, I went into some room because I was pissed off and started talking to some folks. And Blake was there.
And I don't know if I had mentioned to... I just kicked some guys out of the band, man. They're just doing my head in. And I started talking to Blake. And Blake's going, oh, yeah, I play guitar. And I go, oh, yeah. And he's like, you know. And we kind of hit it off. I mean, I kind of knew... Blake, you know, a little bit. But, you know, like, again, I mean, at this stage, he's probably like four years younger than me.
So not somebody I would normally hang out with because I think at this stage I'm like 18 and he's, you know, like 14. But I knew him. Yeah, because, yeah, I think I'd mentioned to Brandon, like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, these guys are, you know, pissing me off. And he goes, oh, yeah, Blake plays guitar. And so I think I was talking about, anyways, long story short, that night, Blake became the guitarist. So, um, you know, again, I'm time-wise, this is probably early 82, I would imagine.
Um, yeah, or sometime in 82. And, um, and, and so Blake joins the band. So it's me, Blake and, um, Kevin Lundberg. And we, you know, we kind of start jamming and, um, Then Kevin's kind of like, eh, you know, whatever. And kind of, you know, he just kind of drifted away from the band. And, you know, I think it was more kind of starting to get into more, I don't know, gothy, dancey type stuff. And so he left. And then so it's me and Black. And then we auditioned this guy, Ricky Bowersock, on bass.
And just this kind of young kid from Ventura. And so he joined the band. And he was awesome, Ricky. He was a great guy. But Just a bit unstable. I think his family background was single dad raising him, and him and his dad didn't get on. And I think he bailed, and he was living on the streets of Santa Barbara for a little while. And so it was kind of hard getting him to practice. But he was in the band for a while. And so it was me, Blake, and this guy Ricky on bass.
And then we got this guy, Joel Liebke, from Thousand Oaks on drums. And he was an awesome drummer. Um, and he was a real powerhouse drummer. And so that probably changed the sound. I mean, a Blake started, Blake was the primary songwriter. Um, and I, you know, I think he picked up a lot of, a lot of riffs or kind of, you know, maybe leftover stuff from Henry from aggression because Henry was, you know, Blake's sister Mandy's long, you know, they were partners for a long time.
And so
Henry, I think, had lived at their house for a little while. So I think, you know, some of those riffs may have been like leftovers from Henry. But Blake was the kind of the main songwriter, you know, musically. And then I was always lyrically. Although I did write In Control was my one musical credit song. I wrote the music for In Control. That's great. I was going to fucking write it on the bass one day.
And yeah, so I think it was having Joel, this real powerhouse drummer, and then Blake and Ricky. But then there was a number of changes. So that lineup that I just described to you, that we played Shameless O'Brien's Articles of Faith. We got interviewed by Flipside. Things were really going, moving. Ricky left after a while. I'm not sure how long, maybe six, nine months. And then we got this guy I got Ben Arionis in for a little while from Ventura.
And he actually has a songwriting credit I'm in control. He wrote, I can't even remember what the song is, but he wrote a little song on there. And he was kind of short-lived and there was a few changes and then Joel left because he just surfed too much, that guy. Great drummer, nice guy, but just he was always surfing. And at that stage, we got... So then John Morris kind of joined the band at that stage. He lived in Oxnard Shores.
And again, I think Blake knew him and I kind of vaguely knew him from the scene, you know, from various parties. And he joined the band. And then he brought Dave. Well, Dave Casillas, he was a funny one because I hung around with him a lot, too, you know. in and out. Because Dave was actually... Actually, Dave Casillas was the guy who introduced me to Carl Winrich. Sorry, this interview is all over the place. No, it's great. It's great. I'm trying to piece this history together.
Well, you're filling in the gaps between the records, at least. Like, I always thought that Joey Lipke played on the demo.
You thought who Joey Lipke played on the demo?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nah, nah, nah, nah.
So see, you're clearing it up. So don't think you're throwing out too much information. I'm learning, too.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so it was actually, so Dave, yeah, Dave, I kind of knew like he was just, you know, one of those Oxnard punks that was always around. So he was a friend and, um, I think he was actually playing and, you know, kind of jamming with John Morris and they kind of came as a package.
So we all of a sudden got a lead guitarist and a bass player and, And then, so this is, you can see the band kind of really gelling up and drumming up as to, you know, what it's known as today. So it was, and then we went through a few different drummers. I think that guy, Robin Cartwright, it was, who was the initial drummer for Dr. Nutt. He played with Solid for a little while, but yeah, he was, yeah, he kind of didn't last. And then we had, who did we have on drums at that time?
Oh, um, Harry Weisenheimer, Harry Meisenheimer. So, um, you, you know, later went on to join the cramps and become ultra fine. But, um, he, he was a drummer. So, and then he was the drummer for the original drummer for ended up being the original drummer for false confession.
Sure. And he plays on it.
Um, so he plays on in control. Yeah. So he, yeah. And that's where we kind of did started doing our first touring because we, Harry's parents had this awesome van, man. It was one of those touring vans, you know, with, like, plush velour seats and, you know, shag carpeting on the ceiling and everywhere. And, you know, just this awesome, like, one of those extendo vans, you know. Like, it might have been, you know, this kind of, like, souped-up luxury, pinked-out, you know, Ford Econo van.
And that was his parents', like, the family car, but we used to use that to tour in. And so we started venturing. This is when we started venturing up to playing San Francisco heaps, man.
We played
the on Broadway.
That's after In Control, though, correct?
Well, probably just prior to In Control and after. We did, yeah, probably, yeah, probably, yeah. Probably, yeah, you're probably right, yeah. Okay, so let's talk about recording. Hold on, hold on. In 83, we did start venturing up to... To the
bay. To San
Francisco. Yeah, to the bay, yeah.
Okay. So you went in recording control. Where do you record at?
Okay, we initially recorded it at... I had this girlfriend at the time who, her dad was a muso, and he had this friend who had this studio, you know, this thing they were putting together, and they had this, like, awesome, you know, Jimi Hendrix recorded on this analog disc kind of deal. And, you know, we were really kind of sold on, yeah, we're going to record there.
And the guy producing it, this guy, George Newberry, or Jorge Newberry, as we used to call him, who, ironically, went on to be, like, an old troupe. wealthy property developer in Chicago and still friends with him on Facebook. He's a really interesting guy, you know, interesting cat, but he was kind of really like, like, so we, we roll up to this place. I don't know. It was somewhere in Orange County.
I remember it was a fair hike and we get to the studio and, you know, we, we, we start, you know, kind of doing some tracking and, and George turns up and he's like, Ron, can I talk to you? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, we've got to get the fuck out of here. This place sucks. This desk is so old, man. There was like a broken window in the studio that they just had leaned like a piece of plywood up over it and you could hear like, you know, dogs barking.
And he's gone, dude, this isn't going to work, man. He's gone, my vision of punk is to really kind of produce some good shit. I want to document this scene. I want this to be a good recording. You know, we've got to tell, you know, I know it's your girlfriend and I know it's your girlfriend's dead deal, but you just got to get out of this somehow. And I'm like, fuck, you know, cause it's kind of, you know, it's almost like a family thing.
So long story short, man, I say, uh, you know, I do look, I blame George. I blame the other band members that I kind of want to go my way out of this. And I go, sorry, we're not doing it here. And, and, um, And I mean, ironically, there's because this girlfriend who remain unnamed, her dad and his mate had did like a mobile recording, a demo of I think this might have been Ricky. It might have been the Ricky Blake, myself and Joel.
like we did this kind of early demo in my garage and like, she's got that. And like, I, you know, I think she's so pissed about this thing still, like even 30, 40 years later that cause I, I think she had intimated to John Moore that she would release this given some conditions. And I was like, look, I'm not going to argue
with you.
So there is this kind of other floating demo that's, that's kind of out there, but yeah, You know, we did, we did a few cassettes, but, um, you know, she's got the master.
Did you, did you complete any tracks in that, that recording studio?
No,
no. Yeah. Started and quit and left.
Started and left. I think we were there a day, and that was it. But we did lay some stuff down, but it's probably, who knows. Maybe it'll surface one day. I don't know. But I think we just laid down a couple of rough tracks. I think we just did it live to tape, me singing and everything. Anyway, so we get out of there, and then George's vision is, man, we're recording at this studio in Hollywood. I think it was West Hollywood.
called skip sailor recording now this is a fucking high end professional studio i mean i've never seen anything like it you know i mean you know we're punks man we're kids you
know
we're playing in the garage and we go in and this is like the real deal man there's so many baffles and sound boards and you know i've never seen so many cables in my life so many mics you know um you know a drum booth, you know, like everyone's separate, you know, where, you know, I'm, I'm in another room entirely like this is, you know, it was, you know, and it was, everything was schmick, you know, I mean, I think like, you know, the cars had recorded there and Rick James and, you know, and,
and, um, and the, the guys who, um, John gas was, um, He was the guy that put on the knobs. He was the mixer. And he went on to be, I think he won or was nominated for an Academy Award for something. He got into soundtracks, movie soundtracks and stuff. So this was the real deal. It was expensive. I don't know how much. Because George is funding it all. And he's a great guy. But he's quite wealthy. His house is in Bel Air.
And, you know, big house and, you know, wealthy parents, you know, kind of aristocrats from Europe or something. And I think, yeah, I think, yeah. So anyway, so he was bankrolling this thing. Yeah.
Is he Upstart Records then?
Yeah, so he's Upstart. George Newberry is Upstart Records. This was out of his parents. I think if there's an address for Upstart on the album, it's his parents' house.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, yeah, so he was upstart, and he bankrolled the whole thing.
We should drive up there.
It was expensive. I think it was like $5,000 or $6,000, the recording.
Holy fuck. So we should drive up and thank his parents, though.
Yeah.
Thanks for putting Starlog in a good studio.
Yeah, exactly, because that was one thing. Like, I've heard this numerous times
from
some pretty reputable people. I mean, one of them was the bass player from Helmet. who i met um you know i went to they came out to tour in australia and i went to see them play at the prince of wells and i just went up and started talking to them you know as you do because it was Just punk rock to me. And he's like, yeah, yeah, cool, man. You know, because I said, hey, are you guys all from New York? And he goes, no, no, no, man, I'm from Portland, Oregon. And I go, oh, cool.
I used to play in a band back in the day, you know. We played up in Portland, you know. And he's going, oh, yeah, what was the name of your band? And I go, no fucking way, dude. You guys were awesome, man. I was at your show. You played with Poison Idea. Fuck, man, I loved you guys. And I'm like, hang on. I'm a struggling, casual academic, and you're in a multi-platinum-selling metal band. Fuck, man. What went wrong there? And you love me? And I was just going, this is cool.
And he said, you know what kind of makes you guys stand out, man, was the quality of your recording. Because that album was so polished for the time, you know? There's all these bands. I mean, even like I was listening to Black Flag on Spotify yesterday. And, you know, I've got it cranked up, but not all the way. And then all of a sudden a Black Flag song comes on and it was so muffled and low. I had to like turn it up to as high as my iPhone would let me to hear it.
Because, I mean, really, at the end of the day, the recording quality is a little bit, you know. Yeah. You know, now I'm kind of going, fuck it, I mean, I have Greg Cianciolini now, but, yeah, it was, you know, like, you know, that's, you know, I don't know, maybe it's an arrogant statement, I don't
know. No, that recording is amazing, and it's so... You
know, and that's what I've heard by a lot of different people, is that, yeah, the recording, and it was, because it was in a high-quality studio with professional sound engineers who knew what they were doing, and they really got, and George was great. He got the best out of it. you work just like a mother in there, man.
Like I had, I had laid down all of the tracks and he was like, take it home and listen to it, Ron, you know, take, take it home for, for, for a week and you have a list and let your friends listen to it. And, you know, I could tell he wasn't 100% happy. And I was like, fuck, you know. And so, you know, I took it back down to our side. We were listening to it. You know, the band was listening to it. And then Mark Hickey listened to it. And he goes, dude, man, you got to do this again.
He goes, I'm just not feeling it. He goes, I've seen you guys play live. You know, I've seen you practice. I know what you can do. You know, go back in and do it. And I was like, oh, okay. So I felt really like a lot of pressure. Yeah. So we scrapped, we scrapped all of my vocals
and I went
in and did them again. And it was like, you know, and it was true. Like I really kind of like, you know, like, you know, put yourself there, you know, seeing like you're, you know, like, like you're not recording, seeing like it's live, seeing like it's, you know, your life depends on it. And that's kind of what happened.
Yeah. So how, how was your, how was your first session? Was it? Was it too soft? Was it too harsh? How did you lay it down?
Yeah.
You're in there trying to sing a little too much.
Yeah. And it just wasn't there. It wasn't like what I did on stage just wasn't coming across. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say. Definitely just too soft, too mellow, you know?
Yeah.
So then, so not really hitting it, you know,
but when you're done with this record, how do you feel about it? Do you feel like you created a classic?
You know? No, not at all. Like, I was really pleased with it. You know, I mean, I've got to say I was really happy with it. You know, like, because, I mean, even my young 18, 19-year-old years, I was starting to appreciate, well, this sounds pretty damn good. And I remember my dad, because my dad was really into jazz and R&B, and so he had this shit-hot stereo. And I remember listening to the cassette on that.
And then when we got the test pressings, listening to the test pressings, You know, with the Sennheiser, you know, headphones going, fuck, man, this is really awesome. Like, I mean, you know, I mean, I wasn't thinking like it's a classic or anything. I was just thinking, damn, this sounds good.
Yeah.
And even now, even now, man, I was listening to a, you know, a kind of a punk drive mix on Spotify, just a random one. And, you know, and what song came on? Conditions came on. And I was like, fuck, man, that is so clean, so crisp, so precise. So on the money, you know, like, you know, it was, you know, I was just going, damn. You know, and the song that just blows me away to this day is Black and Gray.
Of course.
Because, you know.
Well, they were able to capture, like, they got a really nice recording, but they didn't lose, like, the drivingness of it. You know, like the drums are still raging and, and yeah, but great. Cause you know, the band in later iterations without you, they've, they've re-recorded that song plenty of times and it never has like that initial energy. Yeah. And so those later ones, they're not about it being overproduced. It's about like, I don't know.
No one can really capture that like eighties drum sound, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah, and it was just mixed so well. Like, the bass is there. Yeah,
you hear everything. The
drums are, like you said, driving. You can hear everything. You know, you can even lock in and go, oh, I just want to listen to the lead guitar. And you can do it.
Yeah.
Because... it's, it's, it's just mixed so well, you know? And, you know, it was like these guys, like I said, John Gaffney was another guy, you know, his name's on the, on the, on the, on the credits on the album. I can't remember his name, but they were just like, they, you know, they were professionals, man. This is what these guys did for a living.
So, so this comes out in 1984 and, uh, also,
I would say early 84. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
And the Nardicor comp also comes out in 84. Um, yeah. Do you, which of these did you record for first? Do you remember?
I think we recorded I think we recorded In Control first because that was the recordings for that were finished in December 83.
Okay, and then you go and you record these songs for the Narco comp. Statistic and Do It
Right. Statistic and Do It Right, yeah, which Do It Right was like, you know, it was fun, but my rapping's pretty poor on that. And But ironically, because I've played in a couple of bands here in Australia, and one of the most prolific, and we were actually starting to do big-ish things here, and then it just didn't happen for us. But I was in this band called 20 Minutes. And it was like a heavy hip-hop crossover thing. And there was two singers.
There was one guy, this guy Archie, doing a Pantera kind of. And all I did was rap, man. And I was fucking nailing it. And it was like that. Those songs were, you know. Like, I had it in me. But do it right. Not my best rapping.
Well, that's early. 84 is early for hip-hop, too. The golden era doesn't come until... several years later.
Nah, but I mean, but it was funny because, you know, hip hop and punk, man, had like real synergies, man. You know, like I was, you know, You know, I went to see the Beastie Boys back in the day, like early on. I went to see Run DMC at the Hollywood Palladium. You know, like, you know, I think I was wearing a black flag shirt. And I mean, there was a lot of punks there.
And so there was a lot, you know, it's just these kind of like, yeah, you know, it was, you know, largely, you know, a middle class white scene. But definitely feeling marginalized and oppressed and not understood like, you know, the kind of the African American community that being, you know, you know, so there was these kind of similar, you know, I guess vibes. So, you know, you know, hip hop was definitely on my radar on a lot of people's radar at that stage.
It
definitely kind of digressing.
No, I mean, it's definitely a subculture and, and also, uh, you know, for people that, especially in, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, one thing I didn't really kind
of, you know, I didn't really think about at the time much, but I just only recently got around to, I think, last week or two weeks ago to watching James Spooner's documentary Afropunk.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know if you've seen it in Santa Barbara and myself. And then there was, you know, a few dudes in LA, but you know, yeah, it was, you know, and yeah, so that was, you know, it's kind of a different whole dynamic that I really didn't think about. And when I was in the scene, but you know, this kind of, this documentary, yeah, it was kind of cool. Kind of, you know, I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.
No, that's cool. I mean, it is interesting, um, you know, to have a black dude singing right in early hardcore. It's, it's, it's part of, I mean, It's a piece of what makes Stalag so rad, too. You know, it's like something a little different. Did you ever, like, when did, like, Nazis and, like, white power people start coming around, like, to shows? Has that
always been there? Oh, yeah, shit. Nah, nah, nah. It was kind of non-existent, I would say, early on. And, I mean, look, Oxnard's a funny place because there's a lot of Mexican punks, you
know? Sure.
Yeah.
You know, you had all the Hernandez brothers and heaps of other people. And even in L.A., you know, large Latino, like Circle One, man, they were all Puerto Ricans, you know. You know, so there's a lot of Latinos, you know, so there's a lot of, you know, color going on in there. And, you know, and Jewish people and all kinds of people, you know. It's like, you know, Drew Bernstein, you know, Jewish background, you know, Allison Jones.
Braun, you know, who is, you know, kind of the great documenter, photographic documenter of the scene, you know, along with, you know, Glenn Friedman and Ed Culver and others, but, you know, so you've got this mixed, you know, it's not, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably unfair to say it's a completely middle-class white culture or scene, but anyways, yeah, so The Skinhead's probably around, probably when I was getting, you know, I mean, getting out of it, I guess, yeah, you know, probably
80s, 87, 88, I think.
So the later 80s is when it starts
popping up. Yeah, the late 80s is when it really started popping up, you know. And, yeah, because I think, you know, I remember, yeah, probably, yeah, I would say 87, 88. Yeah, definitely. Cool.
Yeah.
That's when it, yeah. Yeah, that's when it started, you started seeing these kind of Nazi skins. And, I mean, there had always been skins, but they were mostly... you know, sharps. They were, you know, like, uh, or, you know, traditional, you know, traditional kind of working class. Yeah. And there was, you know, a couple of black ones in LA, you know, and, you know, I remember Renee Lehane from Santa Barbara, man.
He was, uh, you know, he's Mexican, you know, and he was, you know, still, you know, black would call himself a skin, you know? Yeah. And, um, yeah. And then, you know, then there was a couple of people, you know, I know who were named, who will remain nameless from, uh, you know, the Ventura County clean that got into the Nazi thing. And it was, yeah, primarily after I left.
Cause I, I went overseas, like, um, I'm probably jumping ahead, but yeah, I kind of left the country in, um, uh, it was early 87, I think. And then I was gone 80, like all of 87 and most of 88.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, about nearly two years. And that's when a lot of that shit went down. There was some stabbings and beatings, and the shows were turning into these kind of bloodbaths. I'd go to the Olympic auditorium, and it'd be just kind of battles between punks and skins. I missed all of that. I was in Europe having fun.
So you're saying it's your fault. If you wouldn't have left, you could have kept the peace.
If I wouldn't have left, yeah, I would have kept the peace. No, I don't know. I'd have probably just got the shit beat out of myself because I, you know, tend to be very vocal and, you know, and mouth off against idiots like that. But I don't know. You know, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was, yeah. So I kind of, yeah. But yeah, I remember it saying, yeah, kind of in the late 80s. You know, like even maybe in 86, there was a little bit going on. Yeah.
Yeah. So we can blame the Stalag 13 heavy metal demo for it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another...
Let's get to it, but let's talk about Yigitro a little bit. Let's talk about Yigitro a
little bit.
So the record comes out, you got a van, and now you're breaking out of town a little more. So you're going up to the bay. Do you ever leave California? Do you go play Arizona? You play...
Uh, we were supposed to play Arizona with aggression and that, um, that tour fell through. We did make it to Denver and Wyoming. We played in, I don't know, something like South Bend, Wyoming or something. And, um, that it was like literally almost like driving to Denver, playing a couple of shows, playing Wyoming and coming
home.
Yeah.
that yeah i think that was yeah and so that would have been yeah that was larry what that was the band that was larry white at all john
so that was 84 85 yeah 84 85
yeah cool um and yeah and we yeah and we were yeah so we were playing yeah like probably after that because like i said the in control comes out early 84 we were playing all up and down the west coast. And actually, I lie. I think we did play San Diego. We did. We played San Diego once. We played with 45 Grave. We played with 45 Grave and a couple of other bands. Yeah. And that was in 84. So 84 was just this kind of blur of shows, 84, 85.
So we were playing, you know, when we started playing big shows, like Gary Tovar from Golden Voice loved us. So we were playing, you know, Perkins Palace. You know, we played this fucking awesome show with the big boys. What was that band? You kind of wore clown makeup from the UK. The Addicts. The Attic. Yeah, The Attic. And I think Suicidal Penance, he's headlined. Holy cow. And we weren't opening. There was somebody, I can't remember who it was. Somebody opened for, you know, opened the show.
Then we played. And then the big boys in The Attic and Suicidal. And that was at Perkins Palace in Pasadena. It was something like a 4,000 or 5,000 seat, you know, or, you know, capacity theater. And it was fantastic. packed man
and
you know and it just fucking went off man this was when i was like we've arrived like you know this is this is the shit man you know and you know we're on this stage and you know you can hardly see the crowd for the lights and you know and it was just chaos like i mean beautiful chaos like you know just people man stage diving marching singing along and you know, the whole place just kind of erupted, man. That was like, that's another highlight show, man.
That show was just, you know, I'm going, man, we got this album out, man. We've got merchandise. We're, you know, we're, you know, you know, we had this review and maximum rock and roll that was like, you know, you couldn't pay money for it. You know, these guys are one to watch, up-and-comers, man. You know, a really nuanced, finessed album. Although they did say my singing was, which is probably something I actually got leveled at.
People tended to criticize my singing as not being as, you know, as strong as it could be. Or as strong as other bands, you know. It's what makes it stand out,
though, right? Sorry? It's what makes it stand out, though. You know, you're not yelling, yelling, you're not doing a snotty voice, you're not doing, you know, a growly voice. It's just, it's a clean shout.
Yeah, yeah, and that's, yeah, effectively, yeah, what it was. I mean, I was, like, my idols at that time, who I just absolutely, you know, kind of emulated, would be, you know, Ian McKay and Henry Rollins, you know.
Sure.
who I tried to sing like, you know? So it was, yeah, that, you know, that passion and energy and that shout, but yeah, to where I want to be heard. I want you to hear what I'm saying. I want it to be.
Yeah. Yeah. You're understandable.
You know what, you know, I was, you know, I would, I would try to sing, you know, cause I did have, I had vocal lessons and, you know, and you know, I've got pretty good timing. So it was something I did try and sing as well as keep it high energy. So, but yeah, that was funny. That was something that, you know, kind of, yeah. But anyway, that's cool. I forgive them. But it was, you know, it was a really good review. And we got a lot of good reviews.
And we were getting a lot of, you know, media attention from, you know, fanzines. And, you know, yeah, it was kind of cool. It was probably like, you know, during that time, it was probably like I was getting three or four or five interview, like kind of postal interview requests a week, you know. for just obscure little fanzines in Kentucky or Brazil or Germany. And I would do them all. And that was one thing we prided ourselves on, that you wrote to us, you got a letter back.
Even if you just said, hey, I love you guys, we wrote back. You didn't have to buy anything. And again, that was probably me emulating Discord, Ian and Discord. Every time I ordered a record from Discord, I got a personal note from, you know, or same with SSD. I got a personal note from Nancy Petrillo or from Al or, you know, or Ian and Skip or whoever, you know. And, you know, and then eventually I got to meet these people because they would come on tour.
And, you know, like we had the Necros stay at my parents' house. We had Suicidal stay at my parents' house. I think Robo stayed at my parents' house. you know, like these bands would tour and, you know, you kind of got to meet these, you know, these, these, these people. And yeah, that was really cool. So we always wrote back and yeah. And you know, if they ordered a t-shirt, you got a personal note, you know?
Yeah. That's so cool. So everything's raging 84, 85. Yeah. And then
we're, we're playing like a machine, man. We're like, we're, we're rehearsing. I was, I was like a, a, a, a work, You know, I drove these guys. It was like I wanted to practice every day, and often we did, and so we're playing. You know, we've got it down like we're a well-oiled machine. You know, we knew exactly what we were doing when we hit the stage.
Right. When do you start experimenting, though, with changing the sound? And it's just so fascinating to me because, you know, Oxnard Narcor 8384 is like – So creative with everyone coming out with the records, right? So don't be mistaken, it's 83. In 84, you have What Happens Next come out. You have In Control come out. You have Plugin Jesus come out. 85, you have Burn come out. But that's like the end of it. And then kind of everything just tapers. No one ever really does anything again.
Yeah, it was weird. It was like it just kind of... But
if you're firing so hard at 85, why not get fired up and go do a record in 86 or in late 85? You're just playing on the same stuff, and then do you get bored of it, or does just the scene change? No, here's
the deal. Well, the scene was changing. I guess this friendly camaraderie was turning into competition. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't know if others have talked about it, but, you know, it was, you know, look, we were all pretty tight. Like, you know, I went to high school with Tony Cortez and Jimmy Callahan and John Fanoff. And, you know, I, you know, we, you know, I knew all of these guys like super well, but there was, you know, starting to get a little bit of company. Oh, we're better than you.
And we're playing my shows and we're doing this. And, you know, I don't know, you know, people probably want to admit it, but, you know, it was definitely there. And I'm guilty of it. I'm not sitting here saying it was other people. It was definitely me, too. I could be a real asshole, I guess. Sure. Well, as
people in their early 20s, you're not rational yet.
Yeah. You know, so we were kind of, yeah, there was, so there was a bit of that, a bit of sniping, you know, you know, and, you know, Dr. Nothing, they're king shit and whatever. And, you know, we were like, you know, it was kind of, I, you know, I, I won't say unhealthy, but yeah, it probably wasn't super productive. And, um, you know, so there, you know, there was a bit of sniping, you know, we can all mythologize, Oh, the wonderful Nardcore scene, but you know, we're humans.
And as you say, we were young humans who were, a bit, you know, arrogant and impetuous and all of that, you know? So there was a bit of that going on. And then also like what, what, what my personal story, what happened with solid 13 is come 85, you know, the record doing fucking well, like really phenomenal, man. You know, like George is getting it, you know, overseas, um, It's, you know, it's selling really well.
I think it went into, I don't know how many pressings he did, you know, I think two or three. You know, we're getting a lot of press. We're playing a heap of shows. We're, you know, we're playing with the Necros. We're playing with the Misfits. We're playing with Black Flag. We're playing with Bad Brains. We're, you know, we're playing with Suicida. We're playing with the Big Boys. We're playing with Whisker 2, man. You know, we played with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, man.
We opened for the Red Hot Chili Peppers at La Casa de la Raza, man. You know, we're, you know, Like, you know, everything's kind of coming together. You know, we played with the Circle Jerks all the time. You know, like we played this Hitler's birthday show that was funnily, ironically, the promoter was a Jewish guy. But yeah, it was weird. But it was kind of the Circle Jerks, you know, and he wanted us on the show. on the bill because of the German name. That was awesome.
We were getting so much fan mail, so much press. It's getting to the point where I'm walking around shows and I can't even walk around shows. I'm like a celebrity. It's funny. I'm this nobody from Oxnard and people want to talk to me. That was weird, you know, because, you know, going through high school, man, you know, all the job bullshit and all that, you know, being a punk, you know, you're just fighting all the time. So anyway, so yeah, so things are really kind of going well for us.
We're on, we're on a wave and they want to roll. So 85, what happens is, you know, George Newberry, he's booking a tour. He's going, the record's going really well. You're doing a Nash and like an, well, an international tour. We're going to Canada. We're going to, you know, it's, I think what in, up what he booked was 65 shows in three months. Like it was going to be kind of, you know, I think June, July, August. It was just going to be the summer of love, man. The summer of Stoic.
We were starting in Oxnard, I think playing Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo. In the Bay Area, I think we played Ruthies and Berkeley. Sacramento, played someplace in Medford, Oregon, played in Portland, played in Seattle. And we did a number of these shows at the Minutemen, which was just fucking awesome. And so we played in Seattle. We played with the Melvins. who were fucking awesome, and they loved us, man. So we played with the Melvins, the Minutemen, and some other bands from up there.
And so that was the tour, and then we were going to go into Vancouver, and then in through Canada, kind of dipping in and out of the U.S., into South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming, into Winnipeg, and just kind of crisscrossing, and then down into Chicago, Indiana, Michigan, Detroit, You know, and then Philly, Boston, New York, down, you know, to D.C., down into Florida and then, you know, back up and through the south.
And, you know, this was going to be our, you know, we were just going to, you know, this was going to be it,
you know.
Yeah.
And this is something I dreamed about from the time I was a little kid. This is a true story. I used to sing. I loved singing, man. I would run around the house. And being the youngest of five, I had older sisters who were into Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Elton John. And so I'd sing all these songs. And I remember singing Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love, man. I loved that song. And I remember singing that and going, man, I want to be a rock star. I'm going to do this shit.
And so this is my dream.
coming true right sure and so this tour is booked man we're we're we're set we're happening and you know some of that kind of sniping and ego and shit that i was talking about a moment ago i think that was kind of internal in the band you know um dave cassius was just strung out on heroin you know here we are this you know the great straight edge band and you know one of our You know, I'll come to find out later that, you know, two of them are alcoholics and one's a drug addict.
You know, Dave was, you know, he ended up, you know, I think we were playing a show once and he was just so off his face. His guitar strings were broke. He was out of tune. And I just walked up to his amp and turned him off and he just continued playing and jumping around. But, you know, there was no sound coming out.
Yeah.
You know, he'll say he quit and I kicked him out, whatever, but he left the band. And so we were, you know, on the eve of this tour. So we're probably about three months out of this tour. We're down to a four piece. So Blake, Larry, John and myself. And then I now remember Chuck Stank. So Chuck Collison, who was the original bass player for Scarlet 13. He's really a guitar player. That's why he didn't like to play.
playing bass anyways so he's an awesome guitar player phenomenal guitar player he has this band now called Until We Die and they are just like you know they're kind of a hardcore metal crossover thing and he's such an awesome guitarist anyways long story short I want to bring Chuck in on lead guitar and you know I pitch it to the guys and they're like yeah yeah okay cool right So we go, we're going to have a jam. And at this stage, we've been practicing at John Morris' house.
We had a whole dedicated room there. We set up, we jam. It is awesome, man. Chuck's got a Marshall stack. He's got a Gibson SG and a Gibson Les Paul. And these songs are just like black and gray, man. My God, man. That was incredible with Chuck. It was so loud in this room, man. Just a grinding guitar. And I was like, man, this is the shit. And I'm kind of like, okay, we're ready to do this, you know. And then, you know, Chuck packs up and goes.
And, you know, I don't know if it was then or maybe a week later, but, you know, Blake starts going, we don't need Chuck, man. We don't need another guitarist. And I'm like, come on, man. We've recorded this album with two guitars. You jump around like a maniac on stage, which is awesome. And so you're not going to be able to pull all those leads off. And I really want Chuck in the band. And anyways, man, a big argument broke out between me and Blake. And again, Blake, he quit.
He just goes, oh, fuck you then and quit. And I'm kind of like, fuck. I go, we're here, man. We're on the cusp, man. Let's do this. And I go, well, stuff it then. And so he leaves the band. His mom had some choice words with me. And I'm kind of going, OK. And so I turned to the guys. I go, all right, we're going to do this with Chuck. And John and Larry are kind of like, Oh yeah, cool. Okay. All right. You know?
And so we start rehearsing the Chuck and we're rehearsing every day and they, you know, it's sounding, you know, I'm thinking it's sounding really good. And then, um, you know, my dad, because my dad's a diesel mechanic. So he's, he's like gone through the van. Like, you know, he, he's, you know, rebuilt the transmission and changed all the seals, you know, the vans.
And, you know, it was actually America's Hardcore's old touring van that I bought off Drew Bernstein for like 400 bucks or something. And so my dad gets it, you know, new tires. It's set. He goes, it's going to get you there, man. He goes, everything's good. And so we got the tour van. We're set. We're, you know, we're ready to go, man.
George is amped, you know, upstart's amped, you know, we're you know he's organizing press events and you know it's all happening and then you know it's like no joke i don't know how long it was before the you know probably three weeks or four weeks we roll up to practice and i get there pretty early and larry and john are like hey man can we talk and i go yeah and they go he goes look dude uh they tell me look dude i'm We don't want to do the tour, man. We don't think Chuck's going to be ready.
It's come around so quick. I don't think we should do it. And I'm like, no, come on, seriously. We're here. Let's do this. Let's do this. And they were just adamant, no. They said, we'll do the West Coast leg. We'll play up to Seattle and that's it. And I was like, are you for real? And they were like, yeah. And I tried to cajole them. I tried to convince them. And they were like, no. And so that's what happened. So June 85, we embark on this tour, man.
And, you know, it's kind of bittersweet for me because I'm like, this is awesome. But, you know, it's like we're playing 12 shows instead of 65. And, you know, we go up to shows. They're great. You know, we have an awesome time. We play and stuff. Seattle, and that, like, again, that's probably another highlight, man. Like I told you before, we're playing with the Minutemen, we're playing with the Melvins, who I'd never heard of, and they were just awesome. And the Melvins loved us so much.
Like, Chuck was, you know, like, the band came alive, and this was where the real metal thing started, because Chuck was essentially a metal guitarist. And we just sounded awesome. It was loud. It was, you know, like it just, you know, he gave new life to those songs, you know, like, like I said, black and gray was phenomenal. And we, we had started writing some new songs, you know, um, you know, a couple that we've, we've actually recorded like, cause we recorded back.
I recorded with the band when we went back for the Narmegadon festival in, um, in 2012, um, We played at the Gilman, we headlined the Gilman, and then we played a couple of local shows in Oxnard, and then we played in our Megadon at the Galaxy Theater in, I don't know, Anaheim or somewhere around there, Santa Ana. And during that time, we actually recorded, I don't know what's happened with that, I've got... you know, a CD of it. But it was pretty awesome.
And we recorded some of these new songs we were playing. Like, you know, I say this is the old new one. But anyways, long story short. So we play Seattle, man. It's awesome. The Melvins love us. They drive. Our last show is in Olympia, Washington. The Melvins drive the 90 minutes the next night to see us, you know. And again, these are, you know, platinum selling, you know, metal band, you know, known all over the world. And they thought we were like, you know, the shit. And then that's it.
we packed the van and we drive home. It was a long, lonely, 24 hour drive from Washington state back to Oxnard. Dropper going off. See ya. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I don't think we practiced for a couple of weeks. Uh, we got to practice. It was kind of lackluster. Uh, a couple of weeks later, Larry says, you know, he, he started track racing, riding a track, you know, bicycle when he, that's what he wanted to do. And he was like, I'm leaving the band. And
I'm like,
great. Thanks. So he leaves, um, we get Rick Heller from, he was in Dr. No at the time. So, and I thought Rick was, you know, going to join the band, but he was kind of like, I'm just, I'll just fill in for a while. So he played with us for a few months and we did a tour to, we played, we toured out to Denver again, played a few shows out there.
And then, um, came back and you know he wasn't really committed so we got two then I kind of get this guy from through a friend of a friend this young guy from Santa Cruz I can't even remember his name um He was a young guy, probably about 16. He came down and was sleeping on my parents' couch and drumming for us. We played a couple of shows, nothing big. Essentially, we had missed the boat, man. The momentum, it's already getting into late 85 and the momentum's gone.
They're like, yeah, your album was out nearly two years ago and you haven't toured and, you know, all these other bands are touring. And, you know, you could just feel it dying. And so it's, you know, look, Chuck loved the guy. John Morris loved the guy. But they, you know, like I was it. I was the band. I was the manager. And Larry, when he stepped in, man, because the guy's a real savvy businessman. he kind of really helped me.
He was the one who started doing all the merch and the t-shirts, and that's what he's doing now with Stalag now. And so when he left, it was a real wound to me, because we were, A, really close, and B, he was like a real business-savvy guy. And so that was a real blow to me as well, to the band. And look, it just died a slow death. It just fizzled.
Does he come back, though? Or how does the heavy metal demo... come about.
Yeah. Sorry for being so long and convoluted.
No, no, no. I love it. I love it. Um, yeah.
Okay. So, so what happens is, is, um, it just kind of dies. This was probably, I think our last gig would have been kind of October.
Okay.
Um, it was at a party in camera, October 85. We, we played a party in Camarillo. We played with, you know, um, I think scared stray, you know, a couple of, um, you know, a couple of other, you know, local bands, up and coming bands.
And I remember I was playing, I was singing out of one of the bands, you know, it's again, something I'm, I'm not proud of this memory, but it was, um, I think the, the bass player for habeas corpus at the time they were band playing and I was singing through his bass amp and something happened and, you know, something fucked up in the vocal stopped and I got really pissed off and I kicked his amp and, you know, and he was like, that's a cool dude. And I'm like, fuck off, you know?
And I was, uh, you know, and look, it's not a proud moment for me, but that is, that was the death of the band. Yeah. That's kind of what I was feeling. And I just thought here we were, you know, like, you know, eight months ago playing, you know, to 4,000 people at Perkins palace with suicidal.
And it's,
you know, we're the next big thing. And now I'm playing some shitty party in Camarillo and it's all over, you know, it was like literally that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. You're playing Camarillo at a party and singing through a bass amp.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that night, I think Chuck and John said, um, and you know, let's leave it, you know, we're done. And they went and joined this hair metal band called Metropolis. And, um, And I think at that stage, I'd already booked tickets to go overseas because I just needed a break. I just needed to get away. And so I've gone to London. And so I took off to Europe for six months. I think I kind of left in November. And I was there kind of November, December, January, February.
I think I came back in March 86. Yeah, so I came back in March 86. Yeah, and I moved in with, you know, because I went with my girlfriend. So different girlfriend from the one from the in control and different girlfriend. So moved in with her, got back. I had started a carpenter's apprenticeship somewhere in 85. So I continued with that. I was working carpentry. You know, I moved to Ojai up in the hills and was living in Ojai and just kind of doing my thing.
And then it was pretty early on when I got back because the metal thing didn't last very long. It was probably 86, 87. And so sometime in early 86, I get a call from Larry White. Hey, man. And I'm like, yeah, what's up, dude? And he's like, man, let's get the band back together. It's like a Blues Brothers moment. We're getting the band back together. And he goes, yeah, man, I got this idea. He goes, I got these young cats, man, these guys. You know Tim Harkins from, yeah, yeah.
I mean, these guys were young, like a lot younger than us. So Tim Harkins, he's won. I mean, I think he just won an Academy Award for some musicals. or some, or no, a Grammy or something for some, I think with corners, some band, like he's, he's ended up becoming a, uh, an awesome sound engineer. I don't know if he owns his own studio in LA or works at a, but, um, anyways, this guy could play a guitar. This guy could play guitar.
And then the other dude we got was this guy, Tony, um, Tony, um, Tony black, who is this like six foot eight, you know, long, uh, curly red hair you know dude that could play a bass like i mean the guy went to like fine arts school like he's a classically trained you know cello player or something like this guy's like so these are two phenomenal musicians and he's tony blackstone on the play he played played for many years he lives in north carolina and was in the band for um you know some
famous country western um singer like I want to say Kenny Rogers, but no, it was, but somebody like that. Sure. And so, yeah, anyway, anyways, I'm digressing badly, but so these two guys, so Larry says, I got these two guys. And, um, and then he says, call Chuck. So I called Chuck. Yeah. Chuck's going to do lead guitar. And so that's, you know, ta-da, we've got, you know, Stalag 13 mark to the, the metal years or the metal year.
Yeah. And so, um, We start jamming out at this old abandoned school that was, I think, turned into a car yard or something in West Ventura off the avenue. And we start jamming there, and it's like, it's just this full-on metal trip, man. And we had all been getting into metal, man, I'll tell you. You know, we bought, you know... Kill Em All by Metallica, man. We all went, I think we went to the record store together and bought it.
And we were just like, we were just listening to this over and over at Larry's house after practice, man, you know. And, you know, we got into Venom. We, you know, we got Celtic Frost, man. That was a real inspiration. Early Celtic Frost, man. Just played that shit to death. So we were getting into metal anyway. So that was probably, you could probably hear that. I mean, if you could hear some of the recordings that we did, because we did do another recording
as
like previous, but oh, you have it. Cool. And, um, and, um, yeah, so all of this, like we were kind of getting into the shit anyways. And, um, you know, definitely I'll put it down to, to Metallica's kill them all. And we used to see those guys at the gate, you know, like we'd see Kirk Hammett and, and, and that, you know, like we'd go down to, um, you know, when we would play in San Francisco, they would go to punk shows, man. And I mean, they were cool dudes. They were punks in my
eyes, you know?
And yeah, so we, so that, you know, so we were just jamming it out and we started playing and, you know, it was, it was pretty trippy. Like some people loved it, some people hated it, you know, but we were playing with, we played with COC then. And I mean, it was actually ironically, you know, man, look, I've got to say, man, I got to do a shout out to Reed Mullen, man. You know, the guy passed away. He was one fucking awesome dude. He was a real class act, that guy, man. Loved that guy.
And I was actually, you know, this is kind of an unknown story. As the metal kind of style was waning, I was asked by Reed and Woody to join COC because they had a break in singers. And I was, you know, they were like, yeah, man, come and sing for us. We'd love to have you.
And Um, you know, and I was going to go to North Carolina and I, you know, I just bought because of my girlfriend at the time, which is kind of lame when I look back on it and, you know, one of the sliding door moments, but, um, yeah, Reed Mullen, awesome guy, you know, RIT. And, you know, those dudes stayed at my house cause we played with them at the Oxnard roller rink and they were great guys, great band. So we're playing with all these awesome bands, you know, but I don't know.
It just, something wasn't there.
Like, you know musically you know those guys could play awesome you know it was you know you know lyrically i don't know man i was on some weird trip you know but i mean uh evan sterling um who played in various bands and was in this this this guy from ohio who's now like the marketing manager of thresher magazine or he has been for like the last 20 years or something um awesome dude he wrote the lyrics to that song city wheels that's on that that metal Yeah, so that was that.
We were doing this kind of metal thing. Yeah, it was kind of weird. I don't know if it was super well-received. I don't know. What do you hear on the grapevine about it?
Well, I mean, it was a mystery for a long time. It was hard for people of my generation to track it down. I only got it probably a year ago, and I'm 40 now. Oh,
okay.
Yeah, so it was just always kind of like a mystery out there. Like, did Stalag really do a heavy metal demo?
And did they re-record all the songs, like, in heavy metal style? But you only re-recorded one song. You just re-recorded No Excuses, I think.
Yeah, I think No Excuses, yeah.
And then the other ones are new songs, so it's kind of hard to compare. But it's ambitious. I mean, I think there's a nine-minute song on there.
Yeah, I think that's City Wheels kind of keeps going. Like, it's a long song. Yeah, that's cool.
So that lasts about a year then?
Yeah, that lasted, yeah, probably, I would say, yeah, about a year, probably, you know. early to mid-86 to probably, you know, mid-87. Yeah, it was all over. Like, I don't know, I just don't think we were getting a vibe. Like, I don't know. You know, we were meant to play some shows. We played the show at Oxnard Community Center, where we had a smoke machine and this, you know, big metal intro that went for, you know, about nine minutes before I even came on stage. And I don't know, man.
It was funny. And when we were playing that set, I did this big jump and I came down and I just really fucking twisted my knee. It swelled up like a grapefruit. We were meant to do, I think that was a Friday night and we were meant to do like a string of shows in LA and Orange County, like Saturday, Sunday. I couldn't do it, man. I just said, dude, I can't, you know, I can barely walk, man. And, um, Yeah, I don't even remember what happened.
And then we played with, I remember, you know, now me just in band, we played in Santa Barbara with Agent Orange and they were the biggest dicks, man. Like they're, you know, we're Agent Orange, fuck off, we're you guys. And, you know, it was like,
eh.
And then I think one of our last shows we played, again, in Santa Barbara with Doggystyle and Brian Baker from... from, uh, minor threat was, you know, there on guitar. And we, we, we didn't do like a lot of really super good shows. And yeah, again, it was one of those that just kind of fizzled.
Yeah. And, and then you move out of the country, you move out of the country in
89. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what happened? So that was, so that kind of mid 87, I think, Well, yeah, probably even early 87, because what happened was my girlfriend at the time, her parents, me and my girlfriend were going to go back to Europe, and then my girlfriend's parents said, We'll pay for your guys' trip if you take my girlfriend's little sister with you because she was a bit of a pain and they didn't want her going on the family holiday.
So we
had to babysit my girlfriend, who was, I think, at that stage about, I don't know, I think she was 15. We'd go off to Europe and we're looking after this group. And that was a wild trip, man. We had a great time. We did some crazy shit. And then we hooked up with these friends we knew from Ojai. And their son was about, I don't know, 14 or 15 or something as well. And I take them all to... We're going to a UROI concert. We're going to see UROI in Rome in this place called Roma AOR.
So it's probably about... 15, 20 Ks outside Rome. And, you know, it's in this big stadium thing. And so we go to this, you know, this, this, this reggae concert. And, you know, of course they're passing, passing the Jays and, you know, everyone's having a big party. And, and then, and then we, and then when the, when the, when it's over, man, we've missed the last train home. So we have to kind of hitchhike to get home.
And this guy picks us up in this Fiat 500 and, and this kind of weird hippie dude, man. And he just takes us all over Rome on this tour of Rome and he buys us Heinekens and, and, and, and chocolate eclairs. And we just have this great time kind of, you know, anyway, sorry, that's not, not solid. But I was having fun in Europe. So I bailed a Europe. So I'm in Europe at that stage. And then I break up with that girl from there. And so I'm in Europe, uh, 87.
And, uh, all of 88 so that yeah tail end of 87 all of 88 and into um yeah till the end of 88 i think i come home um like towards the end of 88 yeah yeah that makes sense
yeah
because and then when i'm overseas yeah when i'm overseas as well um you know because we you know we were pen pals with lots of bands you know lots of different folks and Even a guy here, this guy who played in this band, Civil Dissident, in Melbourne, Australia, this guy named David Ross, who I'm friends with now. I see him. I haven't caught up with him for a while, but he played in this band, Civil Dissident. We used to be pen pals, and when I came here, I kind of reconnected with him.
But anyway, long story short, I was really good pen friends with the guys in Negatione. Sure. I had arranged that I was going to roadie for them on this. They were doing big European tour, you know, like kind of, you know, 40, 50 shows or something. And I was going to roadie for them because I was living in the UK at the state. So I basically, I backpacked for about six months. Then I went and worked in the UK at a pizzeria for about nine months and then went backpacking again.
And so on this, what was meant to be the second lot of backpacking, I was meant to be, you know, touring with, you know, Nicotine. And so I was going to meet up with them at Club Perdisa in Amsterdam, and I was staying at this youth hostel, and there was this woman there who, you know, I remember I would see her around the hostel, and I said, she looked a lot, you know, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, you know. I thought she was German, like I didn't, you know, kind of know who she was.
And then me, and so Ismael was with me, Ismael Hernandez, you know, from Bacchanal, and He's with me, so we're going to go and be the roadies for this band. And long story short, we go to eat at this restaurant somewhere in Amsterdam before the show. This girl turns up at this restaurant, this blonde-haired, blue-eyed thing from the Utah school. And so I start talking to her, and it turns out she's Australian. And so, you know, we hit it off, man, and we're just talking.
And, you know, I'm no longer straight edge at this stage. So, you know, we're talking, you know, I'm drinking, we're drinking, talking, drinking, talking. We end up talking till about three, four in the morning and, you know, go back to the hospital together. And, you know, and so, you know, I miss the band. Again, another sliding door moment.
Don't know what would have happened had I... through it with I might have been in an Italian punk band or French punk band or German punk band who knows but um so kind of like COC I missed the boat for a woman and um anyways that's how I ended up in Australia so I um No longer with her. That lasted four years. But, yeah, so, yeah, you know, I kind of, you know, finished, like I went backpacking all around Europe with her. And then I went back home in, yeah, the very end of 88.
Kind of was at my parents' house. You know, was back on carpentry saving up some money. And then in December 21st, 1988, I, you know, my parents take me to LAX and I fly out to Melbourne, Australia and, uh, lived here, you know, since. Yeah. So, yeah. So I, um, yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I was with my, with this girl for about four years, got my residency based off, you know, kind of fiance visa or whatever. So I was, you know, I became a permanent resident, um, And stayed on.
Then after we split up, I was going to go home. And my dad was like, no, no, man, stay there, man. Sounds like a better country, better lifestyle. And look, you know, I was able, you know, I mean, I owe a debt of gratitude to Australia because, you know, they're, you know, our higher education system is pretty accessible and friendly. It's pretty cheap. And so I was able to get an arts degree, an arts degree with honors for, I think I paid a whopping 13,000 Australian dollars for that.
Um, you know, I've subsequently gone on to, you know, finish my PhD and I'm an academic and, you know, so that's, that's, you know, that's my story.
Yeah. There was just a couple other, uh, things I wanted to touch on, but I'm, I'm glad you actually, you wrapped that up really, really nicely. Um, cause yeah, you, you, you moved to Australia and it was a good choice. You ended up getting your PhD and you're an academic. So the story has a happy ending. Yeah. It's a happy punk rock indie.
Yeah, and I always tell people, and this is a total truism, I mean, academia is made for punk rockers, man. It's made for those that don't fit in normative places. And look, it's an industry or a culture or an institution that has changed a lot. Like most institutions, we're not immune to the kind of neoliberal agenda that's kind of taken hold in the world. But it is still, there's a modicum of individuality. There's a modicum of autonomy. There's a modicum of DIY.
You know, it is a very punk rock profession, I would have to say. Because you're questioning authority and you're doing it with journal articles rather than lyrics. You know, that's how I see it. I'm still writing. I'm still, you know, fighting the system, fighting the good fight, but just in a different way. So to me, it's a career that really suits, it's an extension of the kind of punk hardcore mindset. Yeah,
that's cool. So one thing I wanted to ask about was in 93, you get bootlegged by Lost and Found. Was that completely, do you know anything about that? Like how that came about?
just when somebody, you know, like the, you know, I was speaking to somebody and they go, Hey man, have you seen that? Or, or, um, Oh no, it was actually a dude. Cause I, I think I started my, Oh no, no. Yeah. 93. I think I was in second year uni. Yeah. I think I was in the second year, first year of university. And, um, and there was, you know, this kind of punk kid in my class and we became friends and he's going, Hey man, you got this thing out on lost and found. And I go, Oh, do we?
Yeah.
But
they were huge. They were huge. So, I mean, that really had to add to kind of Stolle's
reach. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because they were out of Germany when they lost and
found it. Yeah, something like that. And that was, you know, that record was out of press, you know, from, you know, 84, 85, all the way until Dr. Strange did it again in 2002. Yeah. So we would have to track down that lost and found record. And it kind of made it accessible to the people of my generation that got into punk in the 90s.
Yeah. I mean, that's cool. Look, I mean, I really don't have any truck with that. It's like, okay, cool. You know? I mean, cause as you say, it definitely would have contributed to our kind of longevity, our reach or, you know, and you know, so it's, yeah, but no, I knew nothing about it, you know?
Yeah. And then also in,
I know nothing about a lot of things.
So in, in 94, uh, Libkey starts the band again. Joey Libke with Blake and they do the Conviction record.
Blake,
yeah. Did you have any opinion on that at the time?
Yeah, well, I do. I did and I do. Blake had contacted me and, you know, was like, oh, dude, what are you doing? And I go, oh, my life's here, man. I live here. You know, at that stage I was married, you know, first marriage that didn't work. You know, I had kids and I'm like, you know, I've got a life here, man. He's like, dude, can they complain? And I'm like, Well, I can. And he was like, oh, okay, because I really want to get this band going. And then that was it.
Like, I spoke to him a few times about it. And then I don't hear anything. And then I think it was my sister. One of my sisters rang me and said, do you know there's this band, Salad, getting around? And I go, no. And then I think somebody... sent me the album they did that conviction.
And I mean, yeah, look, frankly, I thought it was, look, frankly, I thought it was underhanded because I wasn't told about it or asked or, you know, I mean, you know, and that's where I go, this is my band, you know, I mean, that's, I make no bones about it. I mean, you know, whoever, if they want to, you know, if the band now want to dispute it, that's fine, but this is my band and, you know, um, You know, they're playing now with my good graces. You know, I told John Crear, yeah, man, do it.
Knock yourself out,
man. And,
you know, I'm looking, you know, I do, you know, I'll be quite honest. Sometimes I get a little bit, you know, like I see him touring in Japan or I see him touring Europe. And, you know, I go, look, good on you. But that shit we should have did when we were 20, not 50, you know. And I'll be honest. I hold a little bit of bitterness about that. You know, all that shit that happened in 85 that we were we were there, man. You know, this was before Nirvana. We were on the cusp of something big.
And, you know, and in my mind, they let it go. You know, Blake quits. John and Larry walk away. And, you know, it was a could have been, you know, rather than what should have been. So, you know, you know, in all honesty, I still, you know, like, you know, I said, I have no trouble with them playing now. That's cool. You know, it gives, you know, Blake, you know, imminent pride and, you know, I'm happy for them. You know, they, you know, and that's cool.
John Crear is like hardcore through and through. So, you know, he's carrying on the tradition. That's awesome. But, you know, there is, you know, sometimes it is, a little bit of a bitter pill to swallow. Cause I'm like, you know, well, you know, like I said, we should have done this when we were kids, not, you know,
as old men. Yeah. It's just hard to, it's hard to have the hindsight when you're in your early twenties though.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and most bands, unfortunately most bands end up like that, right? What could have been?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I get it. You know? And I mean, yeah, with the conviction thing, yeah, I was a little bit put off like that because I, I wasn't asked. I wasn't, I wasn't asked. I wasn't consulted. It just kind of appeared. And frankly, you know, I mean that guy, Robbie, you know, you know, this is, you know, like, uh, I don't think he didn't,
he didn't,
I don't think they were lyrically very strong. Um, I'm sorry, vocally very strong, but the, you know, the instrumentally, you know, it's a pretty good recording, you know, I think one of the guys, Justin, one of the other guitarists on it, he's a pretty good guitarist. But yeah, that one's another bitter pill. Blake and I just don't talk about that.
Yeah, but you're friends still?
Yeah, yeah. Well, you
came and did those shows.
Yeah, look, I came and did those shows. We're friends on Facebook. If I'm in Southern California, I touch base with those guys. Um, you know, John Morris, we're, you know, I'm pretty tight with, um, mainly John and John and Blake. Um, Larry, you know, like, you know, I, you know, he's a good guy, but I don't know. It's funny. He left. I don't know. But yeah, I do touch base with them. And yeah, we have done those shows. Like we, um, we did when Dr. Strange released, um, re-released In Control.
We did that tour with Dr. No, or No, as they were called then, or Now, or whatever, I don't know, up the West Coast. Kind of replicated 85, I think. And that was good fun. But it was really when we went back in 2012. And that was really good in 2012.
Yeah, that was great. That's when I saw you. So my band missed you when you came back in 2002, because we were on tour. Oh, yeah. And my band was called In Control.
Oh, you're in In Control. You guys were from Oxnard, yeah?
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, because I met your singer at, I think at one of those shows at Rock City.
Yeah, for sure. And Ryan, and he sang in stalag for a tiny bit of time before john came in
yeah that's right yeah i do remember that yeah
so
yeah
but that's right
oh okay all right okay all right
yeah you can piece it all together but yeah we were so bummed because we're like
thanks for hey thanks for um for for naming your band after our album and using the the font and everything that's you know that's that's homage man you know i appreciate that
yeah i thought it was the right way to do it at the time because like yeah you know I don't know. Narcore at the time was mostly just people writing the symbol on their binder or whatever, and we're like, no, we have to throw this back and pay homage to the people that put it here. No, that's cool. I totally dig it. Yeah, and our goal of that band was to put it back on the map, and most people would say that we did a pretty good job with that.
I would say you did. I mean, I think you, you know, I mean, no joke. I've been in classes because, you know, I teach youth studies, sociology. I teach criminology. And I remember I was teaching a first year sociology class. You know, I always have, you know, because we cover subcultures and I go, who's in a subculture? What is a subculture? Who identifies? And I mean, funnily enough, most people don't think. They don't think about subcultures anymore, but I'm digressing badly.
But I had a kid, one of my students who's like, You know, I said, oh, yeah, you know, like, when we get on the soapbox, I go, yeah, I used to play in a band, and, you know, this was, you know, a really formative part of my life, and, you know, I would say it's kind of marked me, and, you know.
And, you know, sometimes I tell them outright, sometimes I give them hints, and they go away and Google it, and this kid went away and Googled me, and he goes, fuck, no way, dude, you're in NARCOR, I love NARCOR, man, I've got all the albums, and he's, like, asking me all these questions. And I've had that experience, like, multiple times, you know.
Sure.
You know, like, I remember I was at the gym at Melbourne Uni working out, and I've seen this guy come in a couple of times, and he's covered in tats, and, you know, and I see he's got the X's and, you know, straight edge. And so I go, oh, I've got to go talk to this guy. It's like, oh, hey, man, you know, what's up? And he goes, oh, cool, yeah, I'm, you know, whatever his name, Marcus, I'm from Germany. And I go, oh, cool, yeah, I noticed you, you know, you've got the straight edge.
He said, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, really into hardcore in the 90s, and, you know, still am, you know. I'm here doing a, I think he was there doing a PhD or something. And, um, you know, long story short, I said, Oh yeah, I used to play in a band. Yeah. Oh my God. They got freaked out. He's shaking my hand. He's like shaking my hand for about 20 minutes. The whole time we're talking
and
he's like, you don't understand. This is like, this is like, you know, like, like meeting Mick Jagger for most people, man, you are like my hero. Dude, I can't believe I'm in my, you know, I think at that stage I was like, you know, 48, 49. And, you know, this was cool.
I think we can credit the loss of found bootleg for that guy.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
You know,
so yeah, so it's kind of, you know, so yeah, so I'm, I'm still cool with those guys, you know, like I said, we hook up and, you know, and you know, it is what it is. And, you know, I should probably let go of my bitterness, but yeah.
Yeah. It's just hard to, it's hard, you know, thinking about what was, but. I think they're doing a good job of carrying it on and keeping it alive. And the guys in the band, they do a great job. And like you said, John, you know, no one can say a bad thing about that guy. Oh,
look, dude. I mean, like, you know, I met him at, because I lived there. What was the band he played in?
Missing 23rd. Oh,
he's playing now.
Sorry? The Missing 23rd.
Yeah, Missing 23rd. And then he was in another band.
Stop Breathing. Stop Breathing.
Yeah. Cause he gave me a soft breathing CD and I love that CD, man. I played all the time. And, um, and, uh, I remember speaking to him at, yeah, it was one of the rock city shows. I think we did in 2012 and, and, and, and, You know, and he was just such a cool dude. And he was like, you know, really respectful and like, oh, you guys, you know, you guys are awesome. You're such an awesome band.
And, you know, and when, you know, when Blake told me he was joining, I was like, man, I mean, I told Blake, man. I said, you know, I didn't buy a messenger. I said, you know, you've got my total, you know, that's cool. You've got my support. knock yourselves out. But I liked it. I appreciate it. I mean, I will say I really appreciate it. They did ask me, like, do you mind if we keep playing? You know, do you mind if we get, you know, John singing? And I was like, totally cool with that.
Yeah. That rules, you know,
and I, and I, you know, that, that's, you know, I'm glad they're carrying it on. I'm glad they're, you know, you know, like, Hey man, let the next generation, you know, hear it. You know, I would love to, you know, like, you know, no joke. I mean, I would love to be involved. I would love to play.
And I, you know, uh, you know, I mean, you know, ironically, man, I mean, I've, I've just become a grandfather actually in September, uh, my daughter's had a little boy and her partner is a drummer in hardcore punk bands here in Australia and we kind of hit it off like a house on fire talking about music and I remember talking to him once and he's like, oh yeah, that's so cool and I remember talking about playing and it's like and I said to him, there's nothing like that that does the seconds
and milliseconds before you play, you know. When you go up on the stage and you can, you know, the tension in the air, you know, everyone knows what's going to happen. They know it's coming, you know, particularly if they know your songs, you know, and just, you know, and I said I had this ritual, I would grab the mic, and I would wrap the cord around, you know, my, I hold the mic in my right hand and I'd wrap the cord viscerally around my hand about three or four times, stretch the cord out.
I'd look at Blake, look at John, look at Larry, boom, we would go, you know, and that was, you know, and that, that's like, that, that is like a religious experience to me. Yeah. And then, you know, You know, and I mean, you know, you know the feeling.
Yeah, I mean, it's never gone away. It's never gone away. I get nervous before I play every time. No,
and it's still to this day, man. You know, I'm 55 years old, and to this day, man, I, you know, like, I'd, you know, I'd love to play. You know, I'd love to, yeah. If, you know, things had transpired differently, and I was, you know, yeah, I would still play with those guys.
But, you know, unfortunately, it's kind of hard to have that long distance, you know, I mean, yeah, again, if we were big enough to where it's like, oh, if you fly over, we'll pay you $10,000, you know, yeah, you would probably do it. But when you're flying over for, you know, they're paying for your airfare and that's it, and the band gets about $500, it's not really worth it, you know. I don't begrudge them that, you know. You know, it's cool that they're still playing.
Well, maybe in 2024, we do a 40th anniversary of In Control.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I mean, I'd be into that, you know. I remember when, you know, it was, I don't know, the dude who runs Megadon, man, I didn't realize, he was like a kid, man. I mean, the guy was like 20 years old or something, you know. 22 or something, you know, whoever the promoter was or that. And I remember he called me. I don't know how he got my number. And he says, oh, dude, what would it take to... get you to, you know, I run this show, this, this, this festival called my Megan on.
And what would he get you to plan? I go, well, in here, take it would be helpful for starters. And he's like, okay, we'll make it happen. And, you know, and that, that, that was, that was, that was pretty awesome. You know, I had a good time doing this.
Yeah. Super cool. Well, Ron, I think, uh, I think we touched on almost everything.
Yeah. Cool.
You did. Did a great job.
I could keep talking for another two hours, but you know, you, probably your listeners probably don't want to, you
know, Hey, I'm not, I'm not above a part. I'm not above a part two. So,
uh, Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to do a part two.
Yeah. I'm sure that, uh, we'll, we'll come across other topics that I'd love to have you chime in on and, uh, you know, you help, help paint the picture.
Yeah. Cool. I mean, look, it's one thing. I remember, I know, um, you know, the, the, the guys installed, they were going to do, I don't know, um, Some guy wanted to write a book on them or something, and they kind of met with him. And I mean, it was kind of ironic or funny, but they didn't really know the history of the band. And they're going, oh, you have to talk to Ron. And yeah, I kind of thought that was funny. But yeah.
Well, now they can just tune into 185 Mile South. Well,
they've got the story. I mean, one of these days I want to write a
book.
Because, I mean, ironically, one of my first PhD topics I was going to do, I was going to write a history of Southern California punk. And I met with the supervisor, who I knew quite well, and she was like, dude, you lived this. Why do you want to, why do you want to write a PhD where you're governed by all these academic conventions? Why don't you just tell your story and write a book? And I go, yeah, you're probably right. I should do that. So, you know, stay tuned.
I might write a book, but, um, but before then I'm happy to talk to you again, but, um, thanks for having me on, man. I really appreciate it. It's been fun.
Yeah. Thank you for being so generous with your time. Yeah, no, not
a
problem. And so Ron, I gotta, I gotta ask, I, I, in them all this way, uh, do you feel like you've been well represented?
Generally?
Yeah. No, on the pod. Do you feel like you've been well represented?
Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Good.
Yeah.
That makes me feel good. Yeah.
I hope I haven't dissed anybody too
badly. No, you've been great.
I hope I haven't dissed anybody too badly. But, you know, apologies if I've upset anyone. But, yeah. No problem, man. Thanks a lot.
Hey, if there's ever beef, we can hash it out here on the air. I'll be the peacekeeper.
Yeah, we'll do a talkback and you can moderate.
Anyway, thanks so much, Ron. I will circle soon and let you know when this is going to air.
Alright, thanks a lot, man.
Take care. Thanks so much. Goodbye.
Have a good one.