What's up, everyone? This week on the pod, we have Ryan Hoffman from Justice League, Chain of Strength, and briefly doing Circle Storm. And we're going to go through all his stuff. And he was very generous with his time. He was an awesome interview, answered everything. And I really appreciate it. If you would like to support the podcast, please like, rate, review the pod wherever you listen to it. Subscribe. Call your friends. Tell them to subscribe.
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185 miles south a hardcore punk rock podcast
all right this week on the pod we have ryan hoffman from uh justice league chain of strength and circle storm so uh ryan when how old are you and and when did you get into like punk and hardcore
Oh, wow. Yeah, I was just thinking back. I believe I got into it in 1980. As I kind of remember, I think my introduction was I just kind of learned about skateboarding. There was a skate park in Orange, California called the Big O. And I remember going there. with some friends and family. We went there, and it was just amazing. There was just people skating and tons of cool music.
And it turns out Devo was shooting their video for Freedom of Choice that sort of week that I got into skateboarding and then just kind of took off from there, just kind of watching the filming of that video. learning about Devo, and then I just was totally into skating music at that point.
Yeah, what town did you grow up
in? So, I pretty much grew up in like Buena Park, Orange, and then my parents, then we moved to the Inland Empire. Gotcha.
To the Pomona area, correct?
Yeah, it's like we called it. kind of Pomona Valley hardcore. But yeah, I grew up in Chino, the city of Chino.
Were you into music before you were into Devo, or was that the first thing you really dove into? Did you like any rock and roll before?
Yeah, you know, I knew just, you know, stuff. I had an older brother, and so, you know, I would learn about, you know, we'd just, like, go through my dad's records, and, you know, and there was a bunch of kind of junky stuff in there, but But occasionally we'd kind of, you know, pull out a Led Zeppelin record or, you know, and so, yeah, I, you know, I knew about, you know, Ted Nugent and, you know, Led Zeppelin, I think at that point.
And, and so, yeah, that's, I think that's when it really kind of a light bulb went off when I was at the, at the skate park.
Yeah. And after Devo, what do you get into? Like what type of, do you, do you jump right into punk out of there? I mean, that's kind of a stretch, right? Or maybe it's not. I think you hear so much about that. Full disclosure, I'm 40, and so that's my age range, and so I'm too young for that stuff.
And I think that a lot of old heads, the Devo thing makes total sense, and then some of us that come in way after, I get that it's underground, and it's weird, and that's rad, but I just don't see the jump.
Yeah, totally. It wasn't, you know, I loved it just because it was new and fresh and it was different. And, you know, and people were kind of dressing weird because Devo was new wave, you know. But I think I really started understanding punk more when I just started hanging out at the skate park. So after that, I was like, oh, wow, I'm all in here. So it was like, after that, there was like, some sort of band put on.
I think it was Christian Hosoi, like, skated for bands at the time, and they were playing cool music. I went back to the Big O, and, like, Dwayne Peters was playing this band called Lost Cause from Orange at the time, and it was just that's when I heard sort of the under, you know, the super underground of punk, you know, the local bands playing hardcore and punk. And that's what I really kind of got into. And, and they just, you know, they were such good skaters and they dressed super cool.
And I was like, you know, a young kid, I'm like, wow, this is like super sick. And so, um, yeah, so that's where I was super intrigued by it all.
Yeah. And they're right there in front of you. So these are, these are normal people that are doing something. I mean, they're, they're, they're larger than life in your eyes, but they're still normal dudes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It just seemed like so unattainable when you kind of like, wow, really? Local guys are starting bands? What? That seems impossible. And then that sort of led into... We had our crew of kids that were skateboarding, and that's when we were like, hey, if they can do it, we can do it. But probably... Before that, I would sort of like, you know, kind of educate myself, educate myself on things. I started going like to the Uplandscape Park. And then this this dude wrote up.
He had a big mohawk. I started learning about the germs and stuff. And this guy wrote up and I thought he was Darby. You know, I just had a big mohawk. And how many other people had mohawks? It turned out it was it was George from Christian Death. And he's the drummer of Christian Death. And I was like, wow, what the fuck? You know, what's Christian Death? And then. And then I find out that, you know, Roz from Christian Death worked at this record store in Pomona called Toxic Shock.
And so we'd, you know, we'd all kind of go there and see what's up. And that's really how we really dove in and really, you know, got that, you know, just figure out the theme, really. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Do you remember your first show?
yeah i want to say um i think my first show were kind of like just local small like halls like very very underground bands um in pomona i believe those were my first shows um and that was kind of like those local bands it was like red brigade at the time and catch 22 these were kind of kind of local bands um but um And I don't know if that came first or I remember when I, I'm pretty sure those were the shows I was going to when I was in junior high.
And then when I, when I was a freshman in high school, we had a friend who like, I think his parents were divorced or something. And, and they, like his mom lived in Fullerton and then his dad lived in Chino or whatever. And then there was a new club we heard about in Fullerton called the Galaxy Club. and they put on, you know, more high profile punk shows.
And so that's when I got to see Social Distortion and the Vandals before that, like first Vandals, you know, first record came out, like they were opening, they were an opening band, I thought. So it was kind of like those bands and then the big, and then JFA came through and then it was like the Circle Jerks and bad religion. And then, yeah, at that point, you know, I had confidence and I was stage diving and all of that.
And then I was dressing, you know, punk and I was all in, you know what I mean?
Yeah. What was the vibe like at some of those, those early OC shows?
You know, they were, I'm such a little kid and my friends, I mean, we were, like I said, I believe we're freshmen in high school. So we were super young and, uh, And yeah, it was intimidating as hell. People were like, fucking, they looked tough. I remember there was a kid on our crew. We'd die to wait for the show. We'd go to school, talk about it all day, all week, and then finally we'd go to the show. And one kid was just like, he just couldn't hang. He was just freaking out.
He was so scared. He was puking and stuff. It was intimidating, Uh, but then, like I said, we kind of started getting our confidence after a few shows. Um, and then, you know, I remember, um, like JFA and they were like, they were the skate punk band and we were just like, you know, fuck it. We're, we're stage diving, you know, we're just going for it. And then, you know, that's it. We owned it then, you know? Um, that was super fun.
And that would have been around what year you think? I think that's 82. Okay. Do you do a band before you do justice league?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, those same kids that I was going to these shows, um, that's final, you know, kind of, we were just like bored one summer and we were going all these shows and we were just like, you know, listening and listening and skateboarding and listening to music. And then we were like, Hey, let's, you know, let's try it ourselves. And I was, you know, everyone would raise their hand. I'm playing drums. I play bass. You know what I mean?
So I was the, I was the drummer and I never played drums in my life. You know what I mean? I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. So, uh, everyone just bought their instrument and, uh, they came to my parents garage and, um, and we stopped, you know, uh, we had a great time, but yeah, we were terrible. And then, We kind of started figuring it out, like, hey, you know what? You're probably better on bass. You're probably a better drummer, you know? And so, yeah, so I went to bass.
Okay, did you have a band name?
Yeah, we were called Diversion.
Okay, and did you play any shows?
Yeah, we just played, like, parties. Yeah, just, like, parties around town.
Cool. And then out of that, where do you meet the Justice League dudes at?
Yeah, pretty much Diversion was pretty much almost the same people that were in Justice League. We just, what happened was we started kind of like, you know, just like reading Flipside and just learning more about, and just kind of like, you know, we started playing our instruments a little better and just honing in on the type of sound. And at that time, and this was the huge kind of influence Uh, for me and some of my friends was, uh, was the cafe to grand in Hollywood.
Um, that was like the spot. Um, so yeah, so we would, you know, we didn't drive at the time we'd get rides with older, you know, people at our school or whatever people that had cars. And so we'd jump in their car and we'd go to, uh, shows there. And man, that's where, like, we started kind of figuring it all out. That's what we saw solid 13, uh, and would kind of figure out what we want to do.
You know, that's when we were kind of like, Hey, we, you know, we, and then we were going to toxic shock, um, more and more. And we were learning more about like underground hardcore American, you know, America's hardcore kind of band. Um, and it was like, you know, SOA and all the discord stuff and touch and go stuff. And, and, uh, that's when we, you know, kind of honed in on our, And that's, yeah, that's when, um, we, you know, we started just like at that point and we were, Oh,
go ahead. Do you do a, do you do a demo or is the first song that you record that attitude song?
So, yeah. Um, um, Justice League, uh, it was funny. It kind of happened pretty fast. You know, again, we were 15, so we weren't, we didn't drive yet. Um, and I remember, you know, we love the cafe and, um, We would, uh, we, there was a number on the flyers, like call this guy, Michael, if you want to book a show here. And I remember just, we would just go to a pay phone. You know, we didn't have cell phones and go to a pay phone and we'd call Michael and then shit. Michael's not there.
We go, you know, try to get ahold of Michael. And, uh, we're saying, man, we're this new band. Just give us a shot. We just want to play, you know, we just want to play a show. And finally he's like, ah, you kids are, you know, determined. Just, okay, whatever. Okay. You know, we don't need any money, whatever. And so, yeah, our first show ever was with DRI. And that was like huge, you know, like that. you know, 22 songs, seven inch just came out there. Everyone was talking about it.
And so when we, our whole like high school went to that show and I think like we were allowed to go to Hollywood. So we'd all lie and say, we're staying over at friends house. Uh, and so that's kind of where it happens. Um, you know, you know, just, uh, just really got the, you know, it just kind of happened so fast. And, you know, we played, uh, with DRI, that show was huge.
And then we played with, BGK from Holland who are super awesome and that's where we sort of met everybody as well they were just like wow look at these young kids like 15 like you know playing you know hardcore and that's where you know people that were hanging out at that time were just people hanging out that became like fans like you know Matt from Infest was just some dude that was hanging out like guys from No Effects were hanging out like You know, you have the dudes from Excel.
You know, all these guys that were just hanging out at that time just went ahead and, shit, they can do it. We'll start our own bands. And it just started
snowballing. Yeah, that's wild. Do you remember the first time you recorded?
Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. We recorded, so we, you know, we went to Mystic Studios. Um, that's kind of where, you know, everybody went because no one knew what, you know, we didn't know what we were doing. And so we met the, um, solid 13 guys, ill repute guys. And they, you know, they said, Hey, go to mystic and they're doing a comp. And that's where we, uh, yeah, we, we went in there and recorded it. It was, it was so much fun. It was crazy.
Uh, so that's what we met like LGJ from the mentors and he took it. It was just crazy. It was like a crazy time for us. For young kids, you know, kind of roaming around Hollywood.
Did you just record that single song then? Or did you do more? Yeah.
No. So it was just that song at that time. And then the band just started kind of, you know, through the year. We were together a long time. And we changed so much. Like, Singer would... quit and then we get a new singer then another singer we're going
we're gonna get into all of it
yeah yeah it was it was a disaster you know but it was so much fun i mean that
song is so cool though the attitude song like it really it comes off as a genuine like 15 year old kid song like you're not you're not uh i don't know you're not batting above your pay grade you know it's like hardcore this is what it is to me you know yeah yeah it's rad
yeah Yeah, I'm pretty sure that song, I think it had a different name, and Mystic kind of messed up on it when they printed the record. So anyways, that's another story. But yeah, we only went in there and we recorded that one song.
Yeah, so this is the song Attitude. It comes out on the Party Animal Comp on Mystic Records in 1984. And yeah, it's like the second of the three of that series. So starting with the We Got Power, then the Party Animal, and then I think there's a Party or Go Home is the third one. The third one's kind of bad. This one's still pretty good. You got a lot of good bands on this. So No Effects on this, Scared Straight's on this, it repeats on this. America's Hardcore, The Grimm, and Sluggo also.
Yeah, a ton of songs. I mean, there's like 40 songs. Now... Correct me if I'm wrong. I want to trace back straight edge in California. Is Stalag 13 the first straight edge band from California that you
know of? You're probably asking it wrong. I'm a terrible historian.
The reason why I ask is I heard that it was Stalag 13, then America's Hardcore, and then Justice
League. Yeah, that sounds about right. I mean, I remember... America's Hardcore being right there. And I don't know if they were before Stalag or right around the same time. But yeah, those two sort of seemed like they were running around the same time. And then Justice League came out. And then it seemed like there were maybe a few others going the same time as well. I believe there was a Unity in Orange County.
with Rob Lynch singing and then there was Uniform Choice who were started out more as a punk band but then kind of turned into a straight edge band because they had a different singer so yeah there was like you know it was Bruin and yeah like and the cafe was sort of the place because that's where the super underground touring bands played like you had Marginal Man You know, all the, you know, kind of the discord bands that were touring would play there. And the Necros played there.
And yeah, it was just, that was sort of the spot. And that's where, you know, all these people were going. And that's when, you know, everyone was kind of learning about, Hey, let's play, you know, it was kind of like, yeah, I believe that's where sort of this whole traded thing was exposed. Yeah.
It's such a shame that the America's Hardcore never came out on record before. It's just kind of a demo lost to history outside of a couple comp songs.
Yeah, totally. I agree. I mean, they were awesome live. I can only remember the one time I saw them was with the Circle Jerks at this place called Seamus O'Brien. And yeah, they were so good. But I remember kind of like Drew was super cool, just like... You know, I mean, I just remember going out with Sala and, you know, I think they pretty much, I think they sort of acquired the America's Hardcore band. So, yeah, I think they just hit it, like, quick.
Like, Drew was, like, you know, he was really energized to, like, get out there and hit it. And, you know, he was ready to go. So he was the one that was making the shirts and everything. Um, and that was a huge, the whole merch thing. That was such a huge influence to everybody.
Yeah. It's a rad shirt. Yeah. I mean,
yeah.
And then, you know, on the, on the, your band effort, justly, I mean, talk about the good shirts, but, uh, we, we totally bit their style, you know, for sure. Um, so justice league goes and you do your first seven inch, the thinker sink seven inch. Yeah. Is this self-released?
No, we were Toxic Shock. A guy that worked at Toxic Shock had a label called Fart Blossom, and it's on his label, Bob Durkee's label.
Yep. Okay. And do you remember going and recording for this? Like, what was that like?
Yeah, yeah, totally. So, yeah, I mean, again, like, kind of growing up, you know, I was like, wow, this, like, sort of dream is coming alive here. And the best, I mean, just the best live band ever. It was like America's version of The Clash was Social Distortion. I mean, you would go see them. They were just so much better than everybody else. It was amazing. And so we were just like, where did they record? And so we went to the same place they recorded, somewhere in Fullerton, I believe.
I forget the name.
Super cool. And how was it like writing a chunk of songs like that? Was that like a challenge? You're 16 at this point, right?
Yeah, yeah. You know, it kind of sucks because the original Justice League songs that we played, you know, that I think got everybody super interested in us. And you can see them actually on the Flipside video. Flipside filmed us one night, and I think we have like three songs. And that's like the original band. And then when Sink or Sink, when we went to record that, it was like, There was a different bass player. I moved to guitar, and then we got a new bass player. It wasn't the same thing.
It slowed down. It was kind of like trying to be a little more metal. I don't know. I don't really like that record. I wish we had recorded prior to that the original lineup.
Yeah, you think this is less raging than the original?
Oh, yeah. We were way faster. It was just a whole different band, you know. We actually originally had a different singer. And then, you know, it was just, yeah. Time, think or sink, we had a different singer, different bass player. You know, it was just, it just wasn't what we started out to do, really.
But you have Roa on this record, and he ends up being a dude that's around forever. Even, you know, singing for Eyelid in the... the final iteration of eyelid. Um, so he has a good run, but, uh, I mean, that's, I don't know. That's neat that he's on this record. I think 85, like that's old school, you know, and it's a juvenile effort, but, uh, it's a, it's a cool record. I think, but, uh, not nothing, not anything spectacular.
Yeah. I appreciate it. But yeah, it wasn't really, again, what we kind of set out to do. And, uh, um, I think Roa would, uh, fully agree. You know, we, we were childhood friends. We knew each other before punk and everything. And, um, so, uh, yeah, we went on sort of journey together, uh, and it was awesome. Uh, we had a great time, but yeah, I just think that record wasn't really what we set out to do.
So a year later you do an LP, um, the shattered dreams LP, you get a new singer. Um, this is Casey Jones. Is this the same Casey Jones that played drums and all the bands?
Yeah, yeah, that's Casey Jones. Yeah, he was in No Financer, Ignite. Yeah, he was a drummer in all of those bands. And he was, you know, a dude that was there. You know, he was one of the, you know, kind of theme store guys we'd see at all the shows. And he was a good friend of ours. And so he would go to all the Justice League shows and we'd see him at the shows. uh, you know, from toy shows and everything. So we were like, Oh yeah. Hey Casey, you want to sing for our man?
You know, I would just quit, you know, it was kind of like that. So, uh, he's like, sure. And, uh, so yeah, we, we just, again, it was just really, it was serious, but we're just having fun as well.
Yeah. And this is a super weird record because like the, the faster hardcore punk songs, like they get way better. Um, but then you also, you, you delve off like to real, like, I don't know. I don't know how to describe the other music, like emo-y type stuff.
Yeah, totally. I mean, that's it. I mean, cause we, uh, the, at that time is sort of where like kind of right to spring came out and, you know, kind of emo started right there. And then we were sort of, uh, again, it was, it was kind of interesting. We were like sort of, you know, kind of one of the first, um, straight edge ish bands. And then we were, you know, kind of one of the first like emo bands really, um, And I don't know, for some reason, it just definitely didn't do it fantastic.
And I think that's why they kind of get overlooked. But yeah, we were there at the right time. We just didn't execute.
Well, I think maybe you don't get the credit for it because the record goes so back and forth. It's almost like you hit a fast song, then you hit one of those songs. Then you hit a fast song, then you hit one of those songs. Maybe you hit it on the side A and side B, and then people would be like, holy fuck, like side B of that Justice League LP, like that changed everything.
Yeah, totally. I think it was just like, yeah, like, you know, you just finally like come up with 10 or 12 good, you know, songs and it's like some are a year old and some are new. And yeah, I think it was just, again, sort of poorly executed in a way, you know, we're just sort of learning, learning what we, what we're good at, you know, we're kind of trying to figure it out.
Yeah. I mean, I would, I would disagree on the poorly executed. I think this is actually, you're executing two styles really well. It's just, it's, it's a confusing record because it bounces back and forth so much. Yeah, totally. You know? So, and then this, this one's on far blossom as well. That's 86 singer Casey Jones. Now he leaves the band and you do a 12 song, excuse me, a six song, 12 inch the next year in 87 and, called Reach Out.
And this has got to be awesome because you go on Positive Force. So like, I don't know, to be on Kevin Second's label, that's got to be insane.
Yeah, totally. I think, you know, we were friends with Kevin. I mean, Seven Seconds were one of my favorite bands. And again, back to the Cafe de Grand, when I saw Seven Seconds at the cafe, I mean, it was just amazing. And then, you know, you start... You know, back then, you know, you kind of write. There wasn't as many people. So you would write the bands you liked and your corresponding. And so, yeah, I kept in touch with Kevin and we became pretty good friends.
And he took Justice League on tour. So that's when we were about to go on tour. And then Casey quit the band. And I think the guitar player at that time kind of quit the band. And then that's why we were like, you know, there was sort of the rest of us were like, you know, fuck it, we're going, we don't, you know, we don't care. This is a huge opportunity. We love stuff. It's like, all we want to do is play and go on tour.
So we played all of our songs without Casey, you know, we just, and then we kind of were writing new songs on tour and everything. And so that record is the band really just without a singer, our bass player, Mark, took up most of the vocals, and then I was doing sort of the backup
vocals. Yeah, and on this record, you go full that style.
Yeah, yeah. And
it's really good. It's kind of like a lot of that later seven seconds, actually.
Cool, yeah. They're a huge
influence. Love them. Yeah. What is your crowd like throughout this? Are there people on the... like when you do the shattered dreams, like are people bummed when you're doing like the emo stuff or are people feeling that stuff more? And that's like why the band kind of went that way.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think we were just trying to be different. I mean, I think that's when things kind of were, they were going kind of a couple of different directions, right? A lot of the bands went metal. Um, a lot of the bands sort of were still sort of like uniform choice, kind of like more basic, you know?
And then, um, I think, you know, uh, seven seconds, they were kind of going more of this kind of indie alternative route, like REM ish kind of, and then you had like, you know, right. The spring and D Croyston and all these like cool, interesting bands as well that, you know, entering the underground. And that's when we, you know, we were kind of feeling that style more, um, at that time.
Yeah. What, what is your favorite justice league release?
Oh man, probably Reach Out. Yeah, I think the last one I probably liked the most. But yeah, but I think, I mean, we, you know, I think we finally, I think we finally, at the end of that tour, we broke up and I think we finally kind of figured out what we're better at doing. And that's sort of where, you know, we started the new band.
Yeah, because you start doing... your most insane music ever next. So the next thing you do is you record for the, the circle storm seven inch, the spirit seven inch, which, uh, comes out. Well, you record it in 88, right? And, uh, the story is you got to tell me if this is true or not. So the story was that you record it. Well, no for an answer was out having dinner. Like they were recording the thought crusade. And then he went in and did the seven inch.
Well, I want to say like, um, I'm just trying to go in order. And, well, Circle Storm was just sort of, you know, kind of like a project or whatnot. And really, like, what happened after Justice League is we broke up, and we just kind of, like, the drummer and myself, Chris Bratton and myself, kind of, like, sat at, you know, my parents' garage. We kind of made a little studio there, and that's where we sort of just, like, we started going two different directions.
We were writing kind of like these, you know, Echo and the Bunnymen kind of songs, and then we were writing like super duper like hardcore songs, which became Chain of Strings. And at that time we were just like, man, you know, we love Echo and the Bunnymen, we love The Smiths, but man, we just were so much tighter, we're so much better at playing hardcore. And of course we love hardcore as well, you know, and so, Chris and I, we pretty much wrote that Chain of Strength record in a couple weeks.
We were so good at playing together. We've been playing together so long, and we were just so inspired when the songs were just coming together, and we were just loving it. We were just writing the lyrics. Pretty much, we're doing the whole thing by ourselves, and then And then we were like, kind of dreaming it all up. Like, who should we get to play? And that's where we sort of, you know, started getting other members in the band.
So, yeah, so that's kind of like, Chain of Strength, that's when Chain of Strength started, really. And Circo Sir was just kind of like a fun thing. How that started really was, we went to, Chain of Strength went to New York, and there wasn't an opening band there. And Chain of Strength was supposed to open. And we were like, oh, shit. Like, let's pretend there's an opening band. And so we pretty much played with, like, hoods on as an opening band for Chain of Strength.
That was, like, how ridiculous. Like, that's how it started.
And this is before you have a record out. You went to New York.
This was... You know, I think at that time, the record just came out, I believe. I believe we met, and that's kind of where the No For An Answer thing comes into play, I think, what you were kind of alluding to earlier, was No For An Answer, our drummer was also in No For An Answer, Chris Bratton was also in No For An Answer, so we were like, shit, No For An Answer is playing in the East Coast, We might as well kind of like, he's already there.
We might as well all get plane tickets, and we'll just play their shows. So that's kind of how that happened. And you know what? I think that might have been before the record was released. I think it was.
Yeah, because the Spirit 7-inch gets recorded in 88. I don't know if the chain might have gotten recorded in 88 too, but it doesn't come out until 89. Yeah, okay. Who knows when Spirit would have came out? It never came out until 96. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those songs were really Chain of Strength songs that just were never released. And so, yeah, that's kind of how that sort of came. We just kind of finished them. We finished them later. That's sort of how that came into play. But yeah, so the Chain of Strength just kind of came together. And finally, we were honed in on our craft. We knew what we were doing. We had a lot of friends.
out there and it just kind of came together and that's when chris and i were just like okay this is what we're kind of meant to do you know
yeah how do you find kurt and how do you know that he's going to have like that insanely perfect voice
yeah it was weird um so yeah after chris and i started writing songs um he said i know this this bass player um that lives kind of near me that's also in a band. I think at the time, Alex was in Hard Stance. He was a drummer for Hard Stance. And so he said, yeah, he's a drummer for Hard Stance, but he also plays bass really well. So I was like, okay, let's try him out. And then I knew Frosty. He was just like, I worked at, it turned out that I started working at Toxic Shock.
I worked there for quite a few years. And I knew a lot of the people because You know, I worked there and so I knew Frosty from just being a customer and I knew he was really in the hardcore and he, you know, he had an awesome record collection and, you know, we were, he was a cool guy. We were friends. So like, we're like, hey, come try out for a band. You know, we have a new band. And then, yeah, Kurt was the interesting one. We were kind of running a bunch of different singers.
We weren't sure who was going to sing. We had these songs down. We were kind of writing the lyrics and stuff. And then we actually asked Ron from Solid 13. He was, I think he was living in London at the time. You know, we were kind of like all over the place. And then we were, I remember there was a, Kurt was in a band called Malicious Intent. And they were playing like a local party. And I remember Chris walked in. He walked into the party and heard Kurt's voice.
And he said, hey, that's our singer. That's what it was. I guess it was like a terrible PA. And the band had all these huge amps. And Kurt's voice, you could still hear it over all that. And so that's when Chris just walked in and walked out. I didn't even like enter the party. I was talking to people and, and Chris walked out and he's like, Hey, we can go. And I was like, what? And he's like, yep, that's our singer. And that was, yeah, that's how it worked out.
That's so rad. Um, when you're on the East coast and you're playing New York, is this when you hook up with Rev?
No, um, that's a pretty awesome story. Um, so, you know, we're crazy into this, you know, we're, we're, it's going a hundred miles per hour. We're so excited about this new band.
Um,
Um, and, um, so yeah, we're, uh, we, at the same time, we're sort of creating it and everything, or finishing up, you know, the songs and we're going to record, uh, all that kind of stuff. Uh, we hear about, um, you know, I'm still in, you know, I'm really close with, uh, like Ray and Purcell. And so they're saying, Hey, we're, you know, it's summer's coming up. We're going on tour. And I was like, Oh, awesome. Like, so we wound up, putting on the show.
So I was like, you know, it was like Soulside were coming to town. I was friends with them. Underdog was coming to town. I was friends with them. Um, YOT was coming to town. I was like, shit, like all these great fans are coming to town. Let's put on a show. And so that turned out to be chain of things for a show. So it was kind of like, you know, our first show, uh, it was like, you know, all, it was just an amazing show. And we, uh, you know, so that was chain of things for a show.
It was in Pomona, California.
Yeah, and did you knock it out of the park first night? Did you have your confidence and you're jumping around? Oh, yeah. It was going crazy.
Yeah, we knew what we were doing. It's been years and years, and we just kind of have this well-oiled machine at that time. We just knew what we were doing. We weren't young kids anymore. We poured many times. And so, yeah, it was pretty good out of the gate. And then we also had our demo ready. And it was just right there, you know, like Ray showed up, you know, and I said, dude, hey, come listen to our demo. And, you know, so he comes in my car. I put it on.
He listens to like one or two songs. And he's like, you want to be on Rev? I said, yep. And he said, OK, done. You know, that was just it's just kind of everything fell into place. And, you know, and I think. people were not happy about it. You know what I mean? Like people were just sort of like, who the hell are these guys that just entered the scene? They already have a record with, you know, ready to go with Reb, you know, they've only played one show.
It was kind of like, there was a lot of negativity towards Chain of Strength because it was kind of already baked, you know? And it was hard work getting to that point. But, and then, you know, Fortunately for us, it was kind of like a turnkey, kind of easy thing. And that's what people thought. People didn't realize, hey, man, we've been going strong since we were 14 years old. Yeah, you paid
your dues.
Yeah. You set
it up. You set it up by paying your dues in Justice League 14.
Yeah.
exactly but nobody you know nobody sort of like other bands were sort of like upset at that whole sort of you know thing because they didn't realize we you know we've established our friendship with you know with with those guys years ago you know what i mean so um so yeah so the change sort of was uh they were sort of frowned upon by a lot of the other bands um, the, the kids, the fans, they love, you know, love chain. Like we did great.
You know, uh, it was just, uh, hated sort of by, I don't know if you always, I don't know. A lot of people say you either love them and there's a lot of hate from other bands just because it, it went to, it was too easy. It seems. Um, I mean, as soon as that record came out, we, we went from, you know, just starting to headlining CDs, you know what I mean? So, um, It seemed like it was too easy.
Well, someone else should write a 7-inch that good. You
know? Like I said, it was just years and years of practice that really got us there.
Did No Friend Answer get any of that same heat when they went on ref?
No, no, because they worked hard as No Friend Answer. They played parties.
They played, you know, everywhere for nothing and built their name and they had a solid name and then you know uh put their record out you know so i think it was you know a little it happened a lot quicker i think for chain you know um so yeah yeah people didn't definitely uh they were like they sort of took it seemed as though they sort of took uh uniform choices place you know, once uniform choice sort of like went metal or whatever, it was like, no for an answer. Just boom.
They were like the big orange County band, you know?
Gotcha. Did, uh, did chain do like full U S tours or would you just fly to the East coast?
You know, I think mostly we'd, um, lie to the East coast. Um, I don't recall. I think chain, I mean, justice league did the whole U S a couple of times, um, And then I remember, uh, you know, chain would kind of like fly to the East coast and we'd play all the major, um, cities in the East coast. So, yeah, I don't know if we, Oh, you know what? One time, uh, we did, we, we, we, um, we did one time we hit like, you know, we hit a lot of the cities, uh, along the way.
Um, so yeah, there were, there was one time, I think it was a quick kind of like our big show, uh, uh, was in, um, in New Jersey with social distortion. Um, there was like a super big show at city gardens and there's a lot of good pictures from that show. Um, how shit there's like a book that's kind of written about, uh, Channing String playing city gardens.
But, um, but yeah, like, uh, that was like the big show and we kind of had to get to the East coast, you know, but we wanted to hit as many cities as possible.
Yeah. You're hauling ass out there, but you're stopping when you got to stop. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember any of those shows going across the country? Like, I'm curious what some of these scenes are like.
Yeah, you know, it was unfortunate. I know, I remember we got, we kind of, you know, we, you didn't have, like, you didn't check the weather. You know, I don't know why. We weren't that bright. But I remember we played, I think, probably, like, Yeoman. And then from there, we went to, I think, Utah. I remember we played Utah. And then from there, we were supposed to play like Chicago, but we kind of hit a snowstorm or something. We were like a day late. And so we missed Chicago.
And then, you know, we played Cleveland. And I think, you know, we kind of missed some of the Midwest.
Did you play with Confront in Cleveland? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. What
was that like?
Do you remember?
Yeah.
Oh, man. I remember those guys were great. You know, I remember, you know, Cleveland was an interesting place, you know, with sort of like there was a lot of like integrity was, you know, an interesting band. You know, they would cause a lot of sort of schism with other bands. And there was like a lot of like kind of, you know, you know, kind of I don't know. There's a lot of like stuff going on, a lot of kind of competition kind of stuff. But we got along.
Once we get to a city and we have a great time with everyone, I think just people like to talk shit. You know what I mean?
Yeah. I mean, them notoriously. Especially what they turn into. So you do the 7-inch True Till Death on Rev, and then you decide for the second 7-inch to self-release. That's a pretty... a bold and interesting move. Yeah, it was a terrible idea.
I mean, yeah, you know, it's so weird. No, it was, yeah, it was a terrible idea. And I, you know, I, I had second thoughts, um, and I can remember the time. Um, so, uh, so yeah, so true to death went so great, you know, and, um, and then, but, you know, at the same time, I think we did have sort of like this ego, um, Uh, we put on our own shows. We like, I don't know our scene. Uh, we were so removed from all the, you know, the New York guys.
And I don't know, we were kind of doing our own thing. And at that time we were really trying new things as well. Like we were trying to like, kind of like, uh, kind of just intertwine, like more like emo embrace, uh, you know, right to spring, but into hardcore. And that's what we were really into, uh, And I don't know, we just felt like we were trying to do something different and we didn't want to kind of get back into that revelation sort of, I don't know.
It was just, I remember, so I moved to New York to play with Judge. And I remember we had recorded those songs before I had left to New York. And I remember... I was at, who was recording? Oh, I think it was Moondog was recording at Don Fury's. And so I was there hanging out and Jordan was there. At that time, I think Ray had already kind of left Revelation. So it was only Jordan and Purcell. And I remember I was like, you know what? I'm, I'm thinking this is a bad idea.
Maybe we should do it on rev. And at that time they were just, they were kind of, no, no, you, you think, you know, better, you know, you're stuck now, buddy, you know, kind of like that. So, so yeah, it was, it was a terrible idea.
Yeah. But you self-release and did you learn something in that process? Like, Oh yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I learned a lot. I learned that people will rip you off. You can ship your records to record stores. It doesn't mean they're going to pay you for them. It was just a terrible experience. At the time, I just wasn't organized enough to really do it right. It was just a terrible idea. It is what it is.
Yeah. I mean, again, though, it's like, these are two of the greatest hardcore seven inches of all time. Like what, what goes into like writing them? Are you attacking like the songs from like a real, like, I don't know, you're going part by part, like, or are you just, because they're more than like bedroom writing songs, right? You got to still be like practicing a lot, playing a lot and being like really creative.
Like, You know, it's like on Too Deep Until Now, like when you go to like the little melodic part on the guitar, like what else is there like that? I mean, at that time, right? I mean, stuff starts getting really creative right around that time, but you're on the front end of that, like, you know, dipping your toes a little bit.
Yeah, totally. I felt like, you know, um, I mean, we're really inspired by, you know, a lot of those dag nasty hooks at that time, but, uh, at the same time, we're really, you know, influenced by, you know, we're just really kind of reaching, you know, uh, it was really like a lot of it was, was, um, uh, you know, a lot of the DC stuff, you know, we were just really inspired by, you know, ignition and, and, uh, right to spring and just trying to do something different in hardcore.
And at that time, you know, after writing is like a super generic record, pretty much like two till death, uh, you know, we really wanted to get creative and kind of put our own spin on it and, uh, and really feeling confident. And that's when, um, really, you know, Alex really, and that's when the whole band, uh, I mean, I would say, like, True Till Death is more just Chris and myself. We wrote a lot of the lyrics. We wrote a lot of the songs.
And then I think the second record is when, you know, after we toured, you get to kind of, you start working together and learning your craft. And that's when I think we were at our best, you know. That record is super special to me. I really like it.
Yeah, it's insane. Yeah. how long does the band go after that before you break up?
Not much longer after that. I think, um, at that, you know, after that record, uh, we played locally a bunch. Um, and, um, I think we did, you know, I think we went to East coast one other time, but I don't know. I, I can sense like, you know, Kurt was sort of like the first one to sort of like, um, kind of bail, um, And, you know, he just didn't seem sort of inspired by it. Like his head was somewhere else. It was kind of like, hey, I need to start my career. You know, that's that's what sucks.
It's like you're always it's in the back of your head. You know, your parents have always planted that seed. You know, you got to start a career. You're going to start a career. And so I wasn't ready. I was still, you know, like I just loved it. And I've just been taking the ride forever. But, you know, I think when. when Kurt started sort of, uh, sort of bailing out Chris and Alex, they, you know, they really spent a lot of time together.
And that's when they said they started writing songs together and started statue. And that's when, um, I don't know. That's when it sort of got like, Oh, you're more into statue than you are. You know, it kind of got into that, you know? And, um, that's, that's kind of, it started fizzling out.
Do you do a podcast? post chain band before you do circle storm
so yeah that's um no uh i kind of um no it was just circle storm was just uh it was a good friend of ours uh kurt and myself a really good friend of ours um doug bellows who cried out for chain early on and just a super good friend of ours and that was it was really him he was just like oh man you guys got to do it i never really got to do it hey let's kind of write have fun and write some songs together and he really kind of put that all together and then also in that band was um was frock's
little brother and he was another one i got to watch his brother do it and he really so that was kind of like it was just like a fun project that we were super that we were doing it wasn't really hurt and i really weren't like ready to take it anywhere yeah it was just it was just a project did
you play and then did you play more than two shows I don't think so. I think I was at both. Oh, really? Yeah.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah. And then the bass player went and did the collision band after.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. He went and did collision with the drummer and, you know, they were, they were younger than us and they were, this was like their first kind of intro into it. And then they kind of did that. And that was great. That was great for them.
Yeah. So let's talk about the remixes, um, in 95 rev re-releases, both seven inches plus, uh, a new song. When did you record the first song? The first
song? So that was a part, uh, that, that was an unfinished song that we recorded, uh, um, at that, that session.
Um,
for the second record. That song was recorded at that time, but it wasn't finished. And so we were like, hey, let's put something special on this that's not on the other seven inches. Let's finish that song. And it was crazy. I mean, it was so many years later. And I just, you know, we had some like kind of lyrics that were sort of laying around. And I mean, we pieced that together in like I mean, I'm talking like five minutes. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, we pieced it together.
Kurt nailed it. Like the first take. Oh my
God. So he did it that many years after he did it years after. Holy fuck. Oh my God. That might be the best voice ever sounds.
Oh man. That song turned out to be like, it was crazy. Like never thought in a million years, we kind of like just threw that together and, Um, I think at that time, uh, Chris was in wool. Um, so he was on tour. He was like in Europe with wool. I think Alex, um, was in a band with, uh, Walter. Um, it was like the band after, uh, quick band. Um, so he was in New York. Um, so yeah, pretty much just her and myself. We went in the studio. It was one take done.
And it was just like, never thought it would be like, it would come out so well, you know?
Yeah. Turn into an epic song. I mean, when, you know, when I got a chance strength, the E by the LP, you know, and it was like, so that song is just in with everything else. And it was like, that was a lot of our favorite songs, you know?
That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It was just, you know, it was thrown together and it came out great. I mean, it was a, it was a solid base there.
I mean, it was, you know, again, it was just an unfinished song that I knew would be, you know killer it's just again it just sort of like came together easier than I thought and sometimes those are the best ones the ones that just flow super fast you know sometimes when you you struggle and you're trying to figure it all out then those you know they're not as great you know
yeah I mean at the end of the day it's still punk so there needs to be a little bit of that like YOLO mentality in there
yeah so yeah yeah definitely definitely
Why did you, why did you like remix the, the seven inches though?
Yeah. And make them sound so
drastically different.
Uh, you know, um, just not being experienced, I guess, and never having enough time in the studio. Um, I don't know. It was kind of like, um, Hey, we're putting this out. Let's kind of just rush through it.
Like we've never, Oh my God. Like every time we've recorded, um, it's been like, you know, under a thousand dollars, you know, like, you know, we've always just had to sort of, we've never had time to sort of, and so, yeah, so it was kind of like, you know, Jordan just said, Hey, well, you know, why don't we just kind of remix these and then we'll add this. And, you know, we just did it like Kurt and I did it like, and I think Frosty showed up for some of it, but we did it super fast.
And yeah, I wish we would have kind of, went back and listened to it would have been a good idea. And yeah, it just, it wasn't, it didn't have the same feeling as the original recordings. And that was a soup. That was a bummer because, um, and, uh, so yeah, so, um, so our plan is, uh, is we're going to, um, kind of do a discography and, um, and, and, and, uh, release the original recordings. I can't
believe it's
taking
so long.
yeah well everything we do yeah yeah we've been working on it for like five years now so hopefully uh hopefully we'll get it out before the next five years cool
well you're still doing lots of music related stuff um let's talk about quiet panic a little bit now yeah totally this is a multi-tiered thing that you do you're uh it's a label which is affiliated with bridge nine And you're also managing bands and doing promotion?
Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, I just, man, I just love music. And I just want to, you know, be a part of hardcore and just try to do something different as well. So, yeah, initially I was talking to Revelation about doing kind of an imprint label. And we had a few ideas and it just sort of kind of fizzled out. And that's when, I believe it was Mike Gitter, you know, sort of was talking to Bridge Nine. And anyways, it just, it came, it kind of came alive. And so they were very interested.
And so, yeah, so we kind of, we went ahead and we released a few bands on the Quiet Panic label, as well as we're managing bands. And, yeah, it's been less than a year, and we've been doing a lot. It's been going really great.
That's so rad. You manage my favorite band, Take Offense.
Oh, no way. They're your favorite?
Well, yeah, and I employ two of them, so I hate when you send them on tour.
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, I work with this guy, Mike Messina. He's a San Diego guy. We met, like, You know, back in the day And we just, you know, always talked about working together Just been friends forever And so, yeah, really he handles Take Offense He works really hard with them And they're doing great
No, they're the best And that new record is insane And the kids are taken to it Like the last couple times they've played down here It's like the new songs are almost as big as the old ones So they kill it I love them
Um, that's, that's so great to hear. That's awesome.
Yeah. So what else do you guys have, uh, coming up with, uh, the quiet panic stuff?
Yeah, we're still, you know, we're still looking, um, looking for things and, uh, we're, you know, we're kind of working the projects we have. We just, um, we just put out a record, um, by beats playing, um, their, their record. Uh, we just released their LP, um, and it's doing really well. Um, I don't know, we just, Bridge Nine just emailed me yesterday and said that, you know, hit the Billboard ranking, you know, and so that was super exciting.
And yeah, we're just, we're looking for new bands. We're just trying to look for, you know, things that are different and that sort of have, you know, a super, you know, kind of underground, hardworking band. And we're just, we're just looking. for bands that are just super dedicated to their art and just are going to work hard. Because it's really hard to get noticed, you know, now. You know what I mean? It's just so saturated. There's so many genres and bands.
And so, yeah, we want to put our money behind something that's going to work really hard and putting out something that's interesting and new.
Yeah, it is so saturated because, you know, there's so many... bedroom studios. And, and now with most people just listening to, you know, Spotify or like the iTunes music, it's, I mean, it's, it's hard to say what's better, right? Like, because there is less of a barrier to entry and it's, it's, but it can be pretty hard to like stand out.
It's really hard to stand out. It really is. And, you know, I think you just have to be sort of dedicated to your art and really, I mean, and really just work. I mean, that's, it's just, how you get noticed. You got to play everywhere and anywhere. And, uh, that's, that seems like, you know, that's at least that's how I learned how to do it. You know, um, it was easy.
It was easier in a way back then because, uh, there was fewer bands, but it was harder in a way as well because there, no one knew about it really, you know, there wasn't the internet, you know? Um, so it's just, it's just different, you know, it's different.
Yeah. It's so, it's so weird. Like missing that, that generation of like the, the late eighties, like hardcore stuff, because, you know, you describe it as being smaller, but also the shows were bigger, you know, it's like more of a secret club, but like the club was bigger, you know?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Such a,
such a weird dichotomy, this hardcore stuff. So,
it's, It's so confusing. Yeah, it is. I think there's just way too many genres and too many bands and not enough fans really now. You know what I mean? It's weird. It's just confusing.
Well, I would say in the fans' defense, I mean, it's a weird time to be into music because I had it kind of the same as you that when you would go out and buy a physical product and sometimes be taking a chance on it, you buy it and sometimes you can be let down, you know, Oh, this thing is not, it's not super rad, but you're going to try to like it. Cause it's like, well, this is my bot. So I'm going to try to find a part of it that I like and connect to it some way.
And now with everything, your fingertips, you almost have to flip your attitude that you're trying to not like things because you don't have enough time in the day. And, and that negative mentality, like push on everything I think is, is terrible.
Yeah.
But I don't see another way to do it.
Yeah, and you just kind of swipe through and listen to bits and pieces. You may not even get to the meat of the song. You know what I mean? You're on to the next and on to the next. And yeah, it's tough. It's tough to stand out. And you just have to work your ass off and get noticed. And that seems like the only way that works.
Yeah, the tried and true way, right, of playing every town and play as hard as you can no matter what.
That's right. And that's, you know, you're going to turn heads. People are going to tell friends. And, I mean, you know.
Yeah. Ryan, did I lose you? Hello, hello, hello. I'll figure out a creative way to edit this to bridge it.
oh my
god yeah i'm sorry no it's all good um we we can wrap up i just i have a couple quick inders that i didn't know where to stick in there um well for i mean first off thanks so much for doing this i really appreciate it um yeah of course it's fun it started out as uh mostly documenting the oxnard bands and now for this year i'm branching out i'm gonna do california so i might uh lean on you for some contacts. If you don't, if you won't hate it. Oh yeah. Yeah, of course. No problem.
Cause I want to do Pat Duvall. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Is he, is he reachable?
Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Okay, cool. Um,
you
should do,
um, Ron from final conflict. He would be awesome.
That'd be great. I'm going to do Ron and stalling 13 next week.
Oh, no way.
Okay. Great. All the way from, uh, Australia. Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah, he's hard to track down because of that. He's a doctor now. Not a doctor doctor, but he has a doctorate.
Yeah, yeah. I just hung out with him, actually. He was in Berkeley. Yeah, he was in Berkeley. He was working on something at Cal State Berkeley, and I live in the Bay Area, so we met for lunch.
Super cool. Yeah, he's rad, so it'll be fun to do.
Yeah.
Was Chain of Strength always a straight edge band?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely when Chain of Strength started, you know, that was super important. I think as the years went on, I think, you know, we kind of, I think hardcore kind of became more important to some of the members and then, but some remain straight edge to this day.
Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite, I read a quote once, I've never been straight edge, so don't worry about me. Yeah. But I read a quote once. It was like, Oh, Frosty only drinks beer when he's thirsty. And I was like, that's my man. I love chain of strength. Cause it's always been weird for me because I've never been straight edge and the straight edge hardcore stuff is like probably my favorite music of all time. You know?
Yeah. And you shouldn't feel weird. You know what I mean? It's, it's, I mean, I it was just it was like you look at Infest, right? Like Infest were never a straight edge band, but they fit right into that genre. You know what I mean? I mean, I know Matt since like 83 and, you know, he was never straight edge. And I was always confused. You know, we were young kids and I was always like, wait, wait, you're like you like all the straight edge bands. but you're not serious?
She's like, yeah, no, I'm not serious. I was like, oh yeah, I guess that's why, why should that be a problem? You know?
Yeah. What did you think the first time you heard Infest?
Oh man, they were awesome. Yeah, they were so good. And like I said, I think Matt is just one who like just studies, you know, just he, man, that guy knows, he just, he knows like everything about hardcore. He's just been studying it since like, you know, 82 or whatever. And so, yeah, you just, just came out strong, you know?
Yeah. Super rad. Um, if you, when you do the re-release, are you going to try to get it out this year, the chain, the chain re-release?
It'll, uh, you know, honestly, it's going to take, it's going to take a while. Um, I would say probably in a couple of years.
Yeah.
I would love to get it out sooner, but
for sure. For sure. Um, are you going to be more shows though? What do you have planned for chain?
I don't know. You know, um, I'm not sure. It's just, it's just changed. Just, uh, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's not up to me. There's other guys in the van. I would love to, you know, you know, keep doing it. It's fun. But I mean, the fact of the matter is like everyone wants something different out of it. Yeah.
Um,
To me, it was always sort of like a vehicle to have a good time to, you know, kind of meet people, you know, kind of to visit with people that I met the year prior. You know, it was just a family, you know, and I never had the intention to make money or anything like that. Like, sure, I would love that. But that just wasn't that's not why I'm doing it, you know.
And so I think, you know, when you get, you know, to where we are in age, everyone has different things that they want to get out of it. I did not mature and I still just want to have fun, you know?
Sure. Yeah. I think that's interesting. Have you gotten any like a blowback on Kurt being like, so over the top, like MAGA dude?
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, I would say that's probably a big reason why like chain sort of doesn't exist right now, you know, just because, you know, we, yeah, we're, we're all different. And, uh, you know, and we're, and when we started the band, that wasn't a factor, you know, I got into punk because, uh, you know, I'm super liberal, you know, and, and I, you know, I just, it's just, those values of punk, uh, are instilled in me. That's, that's who I am, you know? Um, so I don't know.
We're just, you know, we're all different and that's, you know, that's a big reason why shame doesn't exist.
Yeah. Fair enough. That, I mean, that's uncomfortable. I appreciate you taking that question.
Yeah. I'll answer anything, you know, um, it's, Not a problem for me.
Okay. Then I have one last one that's awkward, too. Did Chain of Strength ever get beat up by visual discrimination? Absolutely not. I'm
not even sure. I totally know the name, visual discrimination. I feel like it's just not fully registering. Two
LPs, I think, on Nemesis. okay in vain and uh the other one's got a song we got the edge the straight edge and they have a great song called those drugs but
uh i uh no i totally know the name i don't recall the records but um if they beat me up i i would have remembered you know what i mean like yeah i i don't you know i don't i remember you know there's been sort of like a lot of sort of competitiveness and, and fighting. Um, I remember, you know, probably the closest of getting our ass kicked was probably by sick, but all, uh, that's probably been the closest.
And that was, you know, over a girl, uh, you know, um, not, it wasn't, I wasn't involved, but, um, but other members of the band. Um, so yeah, that was the closest to someone getting their ass kicked. I
believe the other LP is Step Back and Listen. I was brain farting there. But it's a decent record. And I'm telling you, there's a song on there called Those Drugs. It's like one of the greatest Trader songs ever. So look him up, because now you don't even have to hate him, because he didn't beat you up. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I don't hate anybody. Yeah, me neither.
Gotta
spread that love.
Yeah, there's enough hate without me being
involved. I feel you. Well, Ryan, you've been totally awesome. I really appreciate you doing this. And, yeah, you got anything else?
No, thank you so much for the opportunity. And, yeah, man, keep doing it. This is super awesome. So keep it up. Well, thanks a lot, Zach. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, do you feel like you've been well-represented?
I just was myself, and yeah, I think it
was great. Okay, awesome. Thanks so much, Ryan. I'll shoot you a text when I know when this is going to come out.
Okay, awesome. Thanks so much. All right, thanks so much.
Goodbye.