176. Madball Set it Off (feat. Matt Henderson & Freddy Madball)

185 miles south a hardcore punk rock podcast we don't fake it we just take it so All right, here's Anthony Pappalardo on Set It Off.

It's kind of like a, like there's no, there's no through line in hardcore anymore. It's, it's all these like fragmented things. And I think, Madball, specifically prior to that record coming out, everyone collectively looked at them as kind of a side project or maybe, I don't want to say in a disrespectful way, like a novelty, right? And those seven inches they put out didn't really hint at where they're headed, right?

So then all of a sudden, Madball is signed to Roadrunner, which is insane, right? And they put out this record. And the only other thing at that time was maybe Sick of It All, Black Train Jack. New York City Hardcore was not what it was a few years prior. Everyone was looking... a little more like ABC, no Rio. Like I said, like things coming out of New Jersey, like New York city was not really this, this, uh, focal point that it was before. No one really knew what was going to happen.

And then for me specifically, like, okay. Mad ball comes out. Like I don't really care. Right. Like I'm not really, it's not really on my radar. And, uh, My friend who was filling in for Shift, my friend Ryan Murphy, who was playing drums for Shift, was on tour with Madball. So if you really think about that, like Shift was on tour with Madball shortly after Set It Off came out. And he comes back from the tour and he moved to Boston and he goes, dude, that's the best record.

And I was... legitimately like, what are you talking about? Right. The only thing I knew about set it off was, uh, there's this like big record that came out and it kind of sounds like obituary. That's what people said. Sound like obituary had death metal quote, you know, air quotes, death metal production. And he goes, yo, every night, this is like the best band. And then I just put on the record and from pretty much when it just comes in, I'm hooked. Right.

And it was, it was kind of a thing where I think there wasn't a record at the time that kind of level set hardcore again, where it was like, Oh, there's a hardcore record. Right. There's not like, there's not a record that's like a certain genre or whatever. It's kind of a throwback to just what hardcore is. It's like, um, A band that is just... They're just beholden to this idea of hardcore. That's it. It's very simple. And so you hear it, and the production is incredible.

The band is so crunchy. The band is so tight. It's basically the last iteration of AF. And it's just kind of undeniable, right? But then I think the proof... The proof of that band, I really feel like I saw them at that time. I can't even count how many times I saw them, but the majority of the times I saw them was driving down to Connecticut. In Connecticut, they were pretty much the house band at the tune-in. I don't know. When you saw them there, they were just...

The presentation of the band, I would say it this way. Freddie... He's got this sick fade. He's wearing jorts. Hoy has got his tongue out the whole time. And then you got wild card, Will Schepler, just holding it down. And it was, it was, I don't know. I think, I think at a time when people were a little resistant to hardcore being presented in a way that was very professional, they just said, yeah, no, like we're going to do it in the best way possible. And we're going to put on a show.

And I, I think the way that they carried themselves and also the other thing I want to say is that there was, there was a stigma around them that they were like a tough guy band. Right. But when you saw mad ball, they weren't the, the tough guy thing was implied. Like you look at them and you're like, yeah, these dudes are, these are the hardest rocks in the room, but they actually weren't presenting them. They weren't, trying to go out of their way to say, we're this type of thing.

They were just like, no, we're a hardcore band. We're singing about unity. We're singing about these very basic things. And I think ultimately what that record did and what it represented was, hey, let's defragment things. I don't think this was their intention. I don't want to get too heady. But I just think they're like, yeah, we're a hardcore band and we're going to do this on the highest level.

And so I think ultimately what set it off legacy is, is that yes, there can be a big record that everyone's going to pay attention to. And then we're going to back it up with this, with the presentation and just, you're going to come here and see what hardcore is. And I think that opened up a totally new lane because I think it, it lowered, like everything got a little pretentious. By 94, things were so pretentious and things were so kind of focused on like all these micro things.

Madball just said, we're just a fucking hardcore band. That's what's up. And guess what? If you don't think we are, come see us. And I think they set a precedent of you can be a band that's aspirational to be very professional, very put together, very consistent. And that's not corny. And, you know, I think that lane was an open, and then I think it opened up a lane for maybe no warning or even terror. Right.

And, and probably other bands that I'm not thinking about, but what it did was it, it gave everyone license to just like hardcore and, and, whether or not, whether or not you like that record, when it came out, you, it was very hard to say you weren't a convert after you heard it, you know, like it, it really over time, you're like, yeah, that's a great record.

And if you listen back to it now, I think what they did was they kind of advanced, um, like in a way it's, it's a more, um, it's like the next evolution of age of coral. It's a story about New York. It's from New York. It could not, that record couldn't have come out anywhere else. So it's very like tied to that, but then it's very referential to other things.

And I just think they brought in kind of like, they added some things to the, they brought some things into the recipe and created, I don't want to say a new genre, but they opened up like the possibilities. So yeah, I think ultimately the legacy of that record is that it made everyone a believer. And I think, I mean, I liked the production on it. I listened to it and I think it's just, it's the crunchiest, tightest, A lot of credit to Wildcard on that one.

I think that band opened up a new lane for a lot of bands, and I don't think they get enough credit for that.

It's like, okay, this is what hardcore is to us. It's super tight, super fucking crunchy. And the presentation, if you saw Madball at that time with any other band, they had the energy. I would tell people to go back to look at when they're like playing dynamo, I think like 95 or whatever, it's like what they're playing to tens of thousands of people. And they're trying to fill up that space. And I, I think they opened up this idea that hardcore could be bigger.

And I just think they're building off what sick of it all did. So I think it's a little different because at that point, sick of it all was like advancing their sound and, And they had been a band for what, like, they started in 86. So they were almost a band for 10 years, right? Madball just comes out fully formed. It's like, no, this is where we're starting. So I think the big difference is I think Madball was a little more referential to where they were from.

And also, unlike Sick of It All, they have deeper roots as a band. And so the expectations were a little different, and I think they deliver on all those expectations. I mean, not in that iteration, but at one point, Roger's playing for them. Stigma's in the band, right? So they have that heritage, and there's a lot that comes with that. And I don't think... You know, it's almost like AF 2.0. That's a huge legacy. That's a lot to fill in. I don't think anyone was unfulfilled.

I don't think if you like AF, you're like, oh, no, that's a disappointment. I think they had big shoes to fill, and they, I don't know, maybe they were stepping into a nine and a half, and they're like, no, we're 12.

And there were some explorers, some pioneers, if you will, that were at the forefront of that change, that whole vibe. Not only sonically, but the look. You know, no more Mohawks. You know, like a different look, a different sound from the scene that we loved. And Madball being, you know, a band from my generation, so extremely important. So that first album, Set It Off, comes out, changes everybody's mind about what a hardcore band like can be and eventually what a hardcore band should be.

The band and the album... were so important at the time. And they had people reevaluating what the whole scene was about. And kids across the country that loved graffiti and loved hip hop and loved punk rock, loved hardcore. Now they didn't have to worry about getting their balls broken by the old heads who wanted to look down on certain cultural elements that were now part of hardcore. Thanks to a band like Madball. Now it's cool. It's cool to tag up that wall.

It's cool to put your city on the map. It's cool to talk about where you're from. And it was like a change in the culture. And believe me, at the time, there was resistance to that style of music. And a lot of the younger bands that would take the lead from Madball weren't necessarily being accepted into the scene with open arms. So more or less, they made their own scene and their own path and their own road became the highway for what this thing is now.

And the naysayers at the time, the people who tried to shut that stuff out, they became irrelevant. And Madball's influence was just too strong. And that album, that lineup, the people in that band, you had guys like Vinny Stigma, the guitar player on that album. So he gives it legitimacy for anyone from the old school that has any questions. Okay, well, here's the Godfather, and he's on this album. And the guy from One Voice on drums and guitar. We got those guys. We got Will Shepard.

We got Matt Henderson. Like they're making this legitimate. Now, there's no doubt this is a hardcore band. You know what? Without those key members, people might question and say, no, no, this is some hip hop rap, heavy metal. No, it's not. It's legitimate. And it sounds great. It has the production values that the metal bands used to exclusively get because they got their money. They got the budgets when hardcore bands never really did.

So this kind of really put the style of hardcore that I love on the map. And that's kind of like the history to it. But there's also the personal side, which for me personally, it was just relatable all of a sudden. I could relate to this band better than I could to some other bands. It didn't have the kind of exclusivity of the youth crew type bands at the time, nose in the air type deal.

It didn't have that dirty kind of like, I hate society and I'm a drug addict vibe or some other, you know, the more dirty hardcore bands at the time. It was just a new thing with an army of younger bands behind them that really just took over the whole scene and really became a worldwide style of music that to this day you see brand new bands popping up and they sound like Madball and they put themselves in the category of Madball style hardcore.

But more important than all of that is just the simple fact that It's an album with great songs from beginning to end. And anybody who's a music fan, no matter what kind of style music you listen to, there are very few albums that you put on from the beginning and you listen to until the end. And by that time, you are completely satisfied. Set It Off is that kind of album. That's why I love it.

And so when we knew we were going to go out for our last European tour, Roger really was the one that came up with the idea of, let's take Madball out. Let's put out another Madball EP and, you know, give people a little taste of that because they really seem to be receptive to it. So that was the reasoning for making that happen. And it was literally me, Roger, Willie, Vinny, and Freddie.

roger played bass um and you know the rest was the af lineup at that point just minus craig and uh yeah it was fun man the whole purpose was to be just stripped down kind of rough around the edges and quick and dirty

And after we came back from that European tour, the last one, and AF was actually disbanded, we all agreed to just do Madball on the weekends and have some fun. And Hoya was our bass player. What's happening? This is Freddie from Madball.

You know, all of us. Not just the scene, but even more so us. So that was my family. So it was all very natural, very organic. Hoya was um, the newer one in the equation, but him and I were really, we're really tight at that point. Like we had become friends and, um, a few years before that. And, you know, we, so we were tight in that regard. You know, we were running around in the streets.

Uh, we had mutual friends and we were just, our whole crew was always running around and, and, and, and, Getting into all kinds of things, but we were all very tight. Very tight. So, yeah, it was family. Even though I knew Hoya the least as far as time goes, as far as years went, but it didn't feel like that. We all felt like family. And Hoya obviously brought a different flavor to the table that was necessary for that record. So yeah, it was cool, man. It was a fun time. It was interesting.

We were creating something. We didn't know what we were creating. We were just playing these different riffs, and I was trying out different vocal things, and who knew it was going to be set it off.

So Hoya brought these amazing riffs to the table. And even a song, he had multiple riffs that were verse-chorus type situations. You never know until you start working with somebody, but thankfully he was open to letting me say, okay, hey, man, that's awesome, but what if we try to do this? It was never my intention to totally reshape it, but I'm just thinking in terms of the overall delivery of the song, and that's kind of where I helped come in.

I mean, I brought riffs to the table, too, for sure, but that was how Corey and I worked together.

And then after, you know, he had left Relativity sometime shortly after One Voice came out, and I didn't know exactly what he was up to, but we crossed paths again when Madball was just doing those weekend shows in that, you know, early 93 time period.

And we actually bumped into him like on the street, just kind of randomly as he was heading into the Roadrunner office, which was right in the, you know, kind of that Soho area next to Vinnie's neighborhood in Little Italy, where we spent a lot of time in those days. And yeah, you know, you got to do a mad ball, really? Man, he got assigned, you know, which was a big deal. I mean, that label was very strong and established, right?

I mean, and we knew Roadrunner, we knew We knew Obituary because AF had toured with them. We had a sense of who they were and what they were about. Definitely had a relationship with Howie. I had a hard time with it because I was in Boston going to school. When AF broke up, I had to figure out what I was going to do with my life. And I never made good money being in a hardcore band. And most people don't, right? So I was like, all right, I got to figure something else out.

I've been putting a lot of time. I was 23 at that time. I've been playing a hardcore band since I was 12 years old, 13, you know? So I got 10 years of doing this under my belt. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it or didn't ever want to keep doing it to get the enjoyment out of it, but maybe not try to make a living out of it. So when I moved to Boston to finish school, It's like, yo, now we can get signed to Roadrunner. They want us to do a record and tour.

You had like helmet, um, you know, biohazard clearly was, you know, kicking everybody's ass at that time. Um, and, but the more traditional hardcore of the mid to late eighties, I don't know, people just weren't exactly flocking to at that time. And, uh, so like one of the, I think the first show Hoya played, we just talked about this not too long ago was, uh, A good friend of mine who attended NYU got a little bit of a budget to throw some type of little show on the campus.

And so it was us and I think it was 25 to Life at an NYU in an NYU hall. And I don't know, there's maybe 50 people there tops. And then the show after that was at the gas station, which was just Just bullshit little hole in the wall in the Lower East Side. I mean, it didn't even look like it had electricity. And there was maybe 25 people there, 30. That

Um, and there was, you know, him and Evan talked about how they kind of had a little friction over that. Um, and they're well past that now. And, you know, when I first joined agnostic front, I met Evan and biohazard, I mean, within the first couple of months, and I already kind of knew who they were from being in the Northeast, right. I, I was finishing school in Boston and they were just starting to kind of make a little bit of a name for themselves.

So when I joined AF and moved to New York in 90, we actually went to go see them play a little more in Brooklyn, which was their, you know, that was their hometown, you know, spot. And, you know, it took me a minute to kind of wrap my head around it for a minute. It's like, so are they hardcore?

Are they like, metal dudes that are trying to be hardcore like you know as a package it was a little not traditional hardcore right but if you knew the guys which i got to know very closely very quickly around that time and just i mean they were hardcore dudes i mean it was there was no debate about it they just they just latched onto a formula that took their music and the band which i still think used proper hardcore fundamentals, if you will, and just expanded it.

So, yeah, they're a hardcore band.

It didn't have anywhere near the distribution or the... I mean, shit, Roadrunner was putting us in magazines, like metal magazines back in those days. It was just a whole new level of distribution and exposure. We thought, well, a lot of people, hopefully, that haven't heard the band before aren't going to have any idea about this record that came out in Wreckage Records. Let's give them a taste of all that. Plus these new songs we wrote. So yeah, that was why we decided to do it.

And, you know, all the more classic demos that came, you know, later in the 80s from his studio, which was a small independent studio, and those are always cool. But there was analog tape. When Madball did Dropping Money Suckers, he had ADATs, and I don't know if you're familiar with what those are, but that was a real early introduction to digital recording on tape. They looked like VHS cassettes, right? It was very early in that technology, and I don't think that's a great sound. Yeah,

So they just had that spot forever, and we would just book out time. And they always looked out for us. It was just a big, big open warehouse. I'm pretty sure the music building is where Metallica, If you watch any documentaries on them, when they spent time in New York in those Kill Em All days, they were in that music building long before I'm talking about now. So yeah, it was good. It was awesome. It could get real loud. There was good gear in there. It was our gear. We stored it there.

And you're just right in the mix of New York City grind, loud music, and When you listen to that set-it-off record, you know why it sounds that way when you consider the environment we were in.

That's, you know, you, you're familiar with that, uh, type of task. That's a lot of work, man.

And sometimes they would disagree on certain things and then there'd be like, you know, we'd find like the happy medium, uh, of something. Um, so there was a lot of that as well, but there was a lot of times where like, you know, Hoya would come with a riff and Maddie would like it a lot because it was something different than what he was thinking about. So Maddie is always very open-minded in that way. Um, which really helped the whole process.

Um, and, and Hoya was, very humble because you know he was coming into a situation that was I guess you could say already established not super established but kind of established and so he was a little apprehensive maybe sometimes about presenting things but we were all like no man show us what you got you know like we want a different flavor we want a new flavor we want your input and so yeah man you know set it off wouldn't be what it is without that collaboration from the riffing standpoint,

you know, from that standpoint. And then, like, with lyrics, I kind of really didn't know what I was doing, but I would just, like, jot things down as we went and, you know, flying by the seat of my pants kind of deal. And I would bounce it off those guys, and they would, like, they'd be into it, you know, or... Tell me, oh, maybe do this, that. They would give me their input. And Hoya actually helped me lyrically on a few songs. He actually wrote, set it off, lyrics and the music.

So I got to give him credit for that. But yeah, he was involved in some of the lyric stuff too. Just because my cadence kind of had like a kind of a streak.

kind of hip-hoppy kind of swag to it just because that's kind of the music I was listening to and had been listening to for years so and Hoya can relate to that because he was also into like similar music so you know when I was writing I think he could relate to how I was writing and then he also had an idea for certain things so he became involved lyrically on a few songs not just set it off but predominantly, primarily set it off.

I mean, he came, that was the one song where he was like, I have a whole song, you know, and, and, and he literally did. I mean, he had like the lyrical idea. He had the whole kind of thing. And then Matt ironed out a few little things. And then it was just like, that was it.

The first thing we wrote... uh for the new record you know we had it's time right and we've been playing that live in the weekends but you know now we're trying to write you know more new songs for this record and uh we had this attempt that trying to have like again that kind of ball of destruction vibe that ticket ticket ticket ticket ticket ticket you know kind of that type of thing and it just it just sounded whack we none of us were into it but like we knew why we were trying to do what it

was, and I was just like, eh. Just seemed kind of stale, kind of awkward, kind of uninspired. And then I get a call from Hoya. It's funny, I'm realizing I couldn't have, this wouldn't have even been cell phone, right? 93, I didn't have a cell phone, so it must have been at the apartment I was living. He calls me up, he says, yo, I got a new riff, new song. And he plays that, set it off, you know, the the first three parts, right? The... And the first... And then when the... I was like, yo.

Because I was still getting the nohoy a little bit. I didn't know exactly... You know, I liked Demise a lot. And I knew he wrote the majority of those riffs. And it was... You know, they were cool, man. They were... You know, on the busier side, which I'm not saying is a negative thing, but it told me the guy had some creativity and a little bit of skill. Right. And but I didn't know where we were going to go once he started bringing more music to the table.

And he even told me that it's time he kind of tried to write in a way that he thought fit what he thought we wanted to hear. Now he brought this thing to the table that was all him. I'm like, bro, that I was just I was blown away. I said that has got to be one of the most amazing risks I ever heard. Still is still is

I think we've got some good, tasty riffs here and there. But, you know, if the drummer is not driving it, those riffs are going to be way less important, right? They just need a drummer to kick ass. And thankfully, Willie kicked ass. So we had that covered. And yeah, and set it off as one of those things, too, where when you're writing a song and you need lyrics, you know what? They were Jorge's lyrics. He actually had lyrics. Forgot about that.

So he... he was very excited about that song clearly and rightfully so. So, um, he was like, yeah, this guy, this guy is bringing, bringing some magic.

That whole time I was living in New York and being in that band. And then when it broke up, it's like, all right, let's, you know, let's, you know, the true definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thing over and over, trying to get a different result. Like, it's just not meant to me to make money off this. And so I got to get some type of, something else established. Let's go do that. Oh, but now you get inside the Roadrunner Records.

But the music, was so badass that it was like, so when we were writing that song, I'm like, I think if at all possible, and this was my thought, we knew Biohazard and what they were doing. Life Agony was on their way up doing stuff. Sick of it all, right? I mean, we're just killing it. I'm like, we deserve to be right there. Not because I got some ego thing. I'm just saying I think this music is that good.

And so we could sequence the hell out of that thing. And so I had that riff floating around. I'm like, yeah, that's a good riff. And I just was able to build a song around it. I remember being in the music building, trying to figure out what the main verse riff was going to be. And I was messing around with different notes, trying to come up with that, that hardcore pattern. I know I wanted that vibe, but I just didn't have the notes down.

And Freddie right over my shoulder, just kind of listening and kind of nodding his head. He's like, yeah, that, no, that one, that one, you know? And it's like, okay, cool. We got that riff. And then, uh, like I said, I knew I was working all the way to build up into that. And it was like, yeah, it was. And again, Freddie, this is what I was going to say about set it off, but I forgot that that was actually Hoyas lyrics. Freddie just took off with that song lyrically. Like he, it was obvious.

He was so energized about it that he just, He just started spitting out lyrics, and it took him probably 15 minutes. That's probably a slight exaggeration, but he knew what he wanted to say, and he didn't really think too much about what he was saying back then. It was just all heart in those days, like absolutely all heart, and that was Lockdown.

He came up with this technique with that drum machine where you could put a loop together and he had all like 16th notes going like a... And he figured out a way to delete within the pattern. So it's... And I'm like... And that started the... You know, I got to think about it. No, that's... That part, right? That was from that drum pattern type thing. It's been a while since I listened to

Um, I mean, we were consistently with friends from, you know, like if you watch that New York hardcore documentary that came back, came out in those, in the mid nineties. I mean, yeah, it was the guys in Madball, AF, you know, uh, Isaac, Crown of Thorns, right? Mike Dijon, um, you know, MQ, 2Hit, Narc, Steve Huey.

I mean, I'm just naming names that are very meaningful to me, but, I mean, we had a big, large crew of people that just were entrenched into the culture of that city and that hardcore scene. It was just really what we did, man.

And so we went down there and I met him for the first time. He's a 15 year old kid and nice kid, but a little, you know, I don't say awkward, but, you know, he just he was kind of, you know, shy a little bit, you know, which is kind of interesting to think about. And then, you know, but he was excited to see everybody and, like, so happy to have his big brother there and, you know, the band. He always loved Agnostic Front as a band, the music, the songs.

But he was really nervous to get up on stage because it had been a couple years since he had done it. And he's a little older now. And he was into hip-hop and kind of R&B. He was a 15-year-old kid in Miami, right? And so now it's time for him to come up on stage and do, what is it, Last Morning, right? And, you know, I was like, ah, he doesn't seem like he's all that into it. You can tell he felt a little shy and embarrassed almost, but he did it.

And then, you know, a year passes, he winds up coming up and living with Roger, and I was living with Roger at the time. And then he's coming on tours with us, and we did this obituary tour.

roger got sick had to leave the tour like within the first week freddie had to sing the whole one voice touring set and at that time the kid was just breathing fire and i was like holy shit this kid this kid's badass um so i knew what that was about when we were doing the mad ball thing and then yeah when we're writing those songs um i had just it was Obviously, the kid's got a really good flow. He's a talented kid. Talented kid who puts really good lyrics together.

You always believe he means what he says when he says it, and he does. And he's got a good rhythmical cadence. I

I mean, you know, we know the hits, Victim in Pain, Last Warning, you know. So With Time, right? One of my all-time favorites. I've probably written versions of With Time 10 times. But so, yeah, to have Vinny with us, and still active and kind of just contributing to that spirit and thing that we're trying to do. That was him.

So we felt obligated to kind of have a portion of that still as we were you know, moved forward, but there was no reason why we couldn't and shouldn't add some new flavors to it too.

Again, in those days, Freddie just put so much attitude and fucking hate into those songs that, uh, you know, it was, it was good enough musically and Willie drove the hell out of it to just give Freddie a platform to just get up there and just say what he had to say. So, uh, you know, it's a, it's a solid jam in life.

And I could tell you stories about him that, you know, proved what a sweetheart of a guy was, but he was also... tough dude, man. And you had to be living in Detroit. I mean, those are the days Detroit was, was known. It was the murder capital of the world, right? Uh, it was a tough spot. So anyway, uh, he, he was murdered. And, uh, so that, that was the inspiration lyrically for that song.

And, and stigma wrote the, the, uh, chorus that, uh, I don't know, it just kind of had a bounce to it, and it worked, man. As a matter of fact, I remember the intro to it. So Hoya wrote that riff, and he wrote it in the same key that the verse is in, right? A, if you will. And I remember this was my Craig Satari moment, right? He's like, yeah. I like it. What do you say if we move it up a whole step, start it up there? And this is also the Berklee College of Music guy.

I'm talking about transposing and shit like that, right? But I did. I felt like if we do a key change, it just kind of adds a little extra something to the song dynamically. And it's the same riff, but now we're just changing keys and et cetera. But I moved it up higher in pitch. And Hoya hated me for that.

And that was part of the inspiration for a couple of those songs on the Drop of Many Suckers era that Freddie used and kind of retooled. So that's what that was.

So I wasn't tripping on the fact he didn't get it by me just sitting, playing it with a neck.

Either over the top angry or just over the top ridiculous almost right and uh so you know we didn't really i didn't think you know we we weren't exactly taking it seriously all that much um but you know again freddy freddy was an angry kid man um you know he's he's he shared his family story i think a couple times um i i won't you know get into it that's his story to tell but uh he had reasons for being a really kind of angry and uh aggressive kid um so you know although the origin of the spit

on your grave lyrics were kind of tongue in cheek he got his hands on him and i mean again you felt like he was literally talking to somebody and literally wanted to spit on their fucking grave.

And it was like, fuck, because, you know, I can't remember how many songs are on there, but it seems like song-wise we had enough, but time-wise, and this was still kind of the early days where CDs were, you know, it wasn't exactly the newest thing, but new enough and people were part of the CD, you know, value and selling point was you can fit more recorded music on it than you could on vinyl, right?

So people, you know, used to complain and feel ripped off if they spent whatever a CD cost back then, but there wasn't enough recorded material on it. You know, fair enough, whatever. So we had to write another song, and it just kind of came together. You know, it was kind of on the quick and dirty side because we had to make it kind of quick and chose to make it a little dirty. But it was fun. I liked the feel.

You know, speaking for myself, it's like, look, All right, we've got this type of song. We've got that type of song. We've got this type of song. We need to come with a different angle now. What mood and flavor can we also throw into the mix to keep something going that doesn't sound repetitive with everything else? I think it served that purpose pretty well.

And I don't know why. I have no fucking clue why I thought that needed to happen there. You know, I mean, I can kind of guess. I grew up listening to Eddie Van Halen, right? I mean, every record that, you know, came out in those first classic David Lee Roth years, he had some crazy, how did he make that sound type thing, right? Always got to have been part of my thought process as a guitar player. I don't know why I heard that sound needing to happen there, but that's what I did.

And yeah, I mean, I think all of the same things you've been saying, right, is that raw kind of primitive style of song with, excuse me, with a bigger you know, professional studio production.

And then, you know, Born to Expire, Killing Time, Bright Side, even though Sick of It All's first record was recorded there, I don't think sonically it does that band or the studio justice, but, Just look around, sure as fuck does. And, you know, Judge bringing it down, right? I mean, epic recordings with epic production. That's what we wanted.

And Normandy Sound, I think, was technically done at that point in time, but I had kept in touch with the engineer that worked with Agnostic Front on One Voice when we were at Normandy. His name was Jamie Locke,

Um, and then we mixed, uh, at a studio, you know, on the South part of Massachusetts on the Cape. And that was, it was actually in the house of a guy named Michael Johnson, who was an old R and B guy in the Boston scene, uh, cousins with Marie star who had founded, uh, you know, new addition, new kids on the block. And there was a Normandy connection there because all those new kids on the block and new addition stuff were done at Normandy.

So that's what I'm going to play. But when we did Madball Set It Up, I felt that much more confident. I'd been through kind of the process of being in a more professional studio. Although still, when I listen back and think about some of the decisions I made, kind of from a production standpoint, I'm like, wow,

So it was street stuff going on, but it was a video recording. We had this documentary that had good street dialogue that you hear. And then, yeah, all of that build up into the, we don't fake it. We just take it. We tried to use the original line, you know, the actual line that came from the movie American me, but it was said in kind of a, it kind of a passing phrase, tone of voice, and it didn't sound real authoritative.

And it was when you just kind of try to grab that snippet, just didn't work very well. So we made this, we said, well, someone's got to say it, you know, like we got to. So yeah, it wound up being Willie, our drummer. And that was it, man. I mean, you know, we were just having fun, you know.

And then realize I just wrote the song. I wrote a song by somebody else, right? Uh, not even realizing it cause it's just kind of in your subconscious and not really, you don't even realize that, it wasn't a conscious effort to redo somebody else's work. Right.

You know, we weren't, it wasn't extravagant, but it was a, it was a, and both studios were actually in people's homes, which was kind of interesting, but it was quality gear and the accommodations were good enough. You know, so we were put up, we were, uh, like when we're in Gloucester, the first night we actually, we were escorted to where this, where the accommodations were and they had, you know, Gloucester is a, is a fishing town, right. In Massachusetts.

Like if you, I don't know if you ever, uh, what is the, they make fish sticks, frozen fish sticks. And you can see like a sailor holding the big, you know, like

And, you know, we were laughing. you know, just towards them around. Um, and just, you know, that was Hoyas first real experience recording in a real, you know, studio. Um, and, uh, Jamie was a fun guy to hang out with. And I mean, we were good friends, man. It was, it was fun.

Um, it was late night and, you know, I know like Jamie, the engineer was kind of fried and I was the last one there. Everyone had already left to get back to New York.

on the recordings I've done up until very recently with this engineer out here in California, Paul Miner at BuzzBomb. Paul's done a lot of bands, H2O, Terror, AF even, you know, like more recent AF stuff. And just a great dude, you guys.

Here's a story for you. Set it off. I did all the guitar tracks using a dual rectifier. And I didn't like it. And I did them all again using a... Shit, what was it? What did we wind up using differently? Oh, Marshall JCM800.

And I mean, you know, if you really listen to this guitar tone on Set It Off, It's not that overdriven comparatively.

He was very savvy in that area. Besides being a great guitarist and coming up with great riffs, he was the one that like really had the structure thing down. You know, he would be the one that'd be like, yeah, that should be a verse. That should be a chorus, you know? And I learned a lot of that kind of stuff from him. Um, and from AF as well, listening to their music, just being around them as they wrote stuff.

I was with them when they wrote one voice and I was with them when they recorded other records, uh, earlier records. So I, I, I can't, you know, I, I absorbed some stuff, but I was never like sat down and taught, how to write lyrics. Um, the first mad ball lyrics were written by my brother. That was like, you know, ball destruction was like recycled AF dropping many suckers was a notepad that my brother had where he had jotted down a bunch of crazy lyrics.

And that a lot of those lyrics ended up being dropping many suckers, which was the EP before I set it off. Um, I ended up using a lot of them because I didn't have any of my own. So I didn't really have a choice, you know, even if I had criticism about it, I would maybe edit a word here and there and change a couple little things around, but I didn't have my own lyrics, so I ran with it. But Set It Off was where I started to learn how to write.

So I'm very grateful for the process because that was actually the first record where I actually became, I guess you could say, a writer of some sort, a songwriter or a lyricist. a lyricist or whatever you want to call it. That was the record. That was where I had to step up. And I did have a lot of ideas and a lot of things I wanted to talk about. So that was where I was forced to express myself on that record. I was not forced to, but that was kind of put on the spot.

Like, hey, what do you got to offer now? Besides jumping around and yelling. So, yeah, I learned a lot.

you know am i satisfied i'm never like i said i'm never satisfied i mean every record i'll find something where i'm like oh i could have said that better or especially the earlier stuff because uh it was very like i mean we were trying to be straightforward anyways straightforward in your face straight to the point kind of that was always mad ball anyway but I could have written things a little better, a little more clever here or there. There's always little criticisms.

I always criticize my own contributions. But I feel like I've gotten better at it over the years, for sure. So I feel as we progress with every record, I feel a little bit better about my lyrical stuff because I feel like I've finally grasped how to do it.

But like, That's an insane rhythm pattern, and the lyrics fitting like that, that's wild.

Um, yeah, I don't know that flow. Just again, I gotta, I gotta give credit to my musical background, I guess, because it wasn't like I was some like super experienced, lyricist at that point or songwriter or whatever, you know, I was just like a kid with a lot of pent up energy, pent up aggression. And I had something to say, you know, and I was pissed off and that part, you know, you can't take away from it.

You know, the, the, the, the lyrics, the, the, the, you know, the, the music and, you know, the vocal side of it is pissed off because we were, we were like, you know, we were trying to like, um, express ourselves, find ourselves, and also, I guess in some weird way, prove ourselves, like kind of step outside of the shadow of agnostic front, you know, which is maybe something no one talks about, you know, often or often enough.

But yeah, we were kind of trying to do all those things and not in like a way of like, you know, it's always love, it's always respect, but just kind of be like, hey, this is what we're doing. But yeah, as far as my flow goes, I never really copied anyone. I just sort of hear what I hear. And I think it's a lot to do with growing up listening to hip hop since the 80s, Latin music, rock, everything. I mean, I listen to everything.

Still to this day, my musical taste is very, very eclectic, very diverse. So yeah, that's the only thing I can say is that maybe subconsciously, I just... I don't know. I didn't know anything else. I didn't know any

That was Freddie's voice, which has always kind of interested me. As he got older, his voice kind of lost some of that and got a little... I don't want to say exactly higher pitch, but it lost a little bit of that deeper growl that he had when he was in his teens, which was, you know, you would think it would be the reverse almost. But anyway, yeah, but still that harmonizer, every once in a while I'm like, ooh, why did we use that?

Because you could hear certain artifacts that would kick in on certain phrases or accents every once in a while that give it somewhat of an unusual quality. But, you know. whatever.

Uh, I wasn't, ever you know and again because i think the band was always cool with it i think i was able to do in a way where i wasn't trying to take over or exclude others from having a say or a um you know contributing um so but yeah i it's it's always been an interest of mine i i can i can sit and do mixing right i'm not I'm not the engineer, so don't get me wrong. I'm not the one running the controls.

But I know the technology enough to know what we're going to need to deal with in terms of, all right, we need more verb on that snare or get a little more compression on the vocals if there's too much compression on the vocals, like that type of thing. But for me, it was always more about balance and layering. Especially in those days, too, another Normandy old-school studio trick. You'd mix at real low volume to just make sure that where your balance was.

You were hearing everything without having too much decibels at you that created artificial harmonics that ghosted the mix in a way.

I had it on a cassette straight from the mixing session. And at the time, I was living in an apartment with a guy, Rick, who was a guitar player for the Bruisers in Boston. And he had just... bought himself a new big stereo and I popped that thing and it sounded huge. I was like, yeah,

Sometimes I was like, too much throughout the whole album. Besides all the little nitpicky stuff that musicians, I think, will always criticize their own stuff. Besides all that, it did feel like something special. I got to say, I'd be lying if I didn't say that. It felt like we had put together something hard, which was one of the first goals was for it to be hard because we're in a We're in a genre. We're in a culture. That's what it's supposed to be. It's hardcore. It's got to be hard.

It's got to be heavy. It's got to hang. It's got to be fast elements, but there's got to be some other elements, too. I don't know. It seemed like it had all the different things that we wanted it to have. It came together in the end. Better than I thought it would, actually. So, Yeah, when we first heard that back, I was like, wow. Yeah, I was like, this is different. I definitely thought it was different.

Definitely thought it was different than AF, than Comags, and other stuff that we had grown up listening to that we love, Killing Time, all that stuff. It was a little bit, little spices of all those bands, little dabs here and little touches here and there, but not any of those bands, not, not, not from the, um, uh, presentation of the, you know, the music to the artwork, to the lyrics, you know, I just, I definitely felt proud that it stood out and was its own thing for sure.

You know, uh, from every aspect of it, from the musical standpoint to everything. Even the record cover, that hadn't been done before, something like that. It was different. Yeah, I was happy. I was happy that we accomplished that, but it was still hardcore, at least to us.

Like, you know, I mean, what that picture shoot showed and, you know, set it off New York hardcore. Like what I, I, what's the connection here? I don't really get it. Uh, but the picture was just so outrageous. It's like, yeah, just put that on the cover. Let's do that.

You know, so, yeah, we knew we were going to do a photo shoot for the record, but, I mean... The reality is that's just how we were. I can't remember, was that BJ that did that photo? I'm guessing that was her, yeah.

And even those friends were kind of playing in bands that, weren't hardcore they were kind of trying to just i think everyone was looking to do some little different uh at some point or another right and so it was kind of more of a a rock scene for some of my friends at that time in the boston music scene and friends with this guy at guitar center good guy kind of a more metal guy and i played it for him and he was blown away um and i didn't think he was kissing my ass i think he was

legitimately like damn you know because It was. It had this thing to it. I was like, what the fuck? That sounds crazy. That's hard. That's badass. But in the hardcore scene, I don't know. I couldn't get a good read on it out of the gate.

And even people not, like I said, the guys that weren't music guys, even guys that weren't, like that hardcore wasn't maybe their first choice for music. They were, I think, like, they felt something. They felt something. They can bop their head to it, something. So it was pretty positive across the board. I'm trying to think if there was anyone that hated on it or said something. Who knows? Maybe jokingly somebody might have said something.

But honestly, I feel like it was pretty positive in our group of friends. And then it just like that whole vibe just sort of continued on throughout the label and the people that, you know, Howie Abrams and the people that had signed us. And yeah, I don't think anyone was disappointed.

It was kind of this own weird little animal that, you know what I mean? But it was... You knew something was there. I mean, there was no debate about that. And we were a pretty well-oiled live band at that time. So, you know, if maybe you didn't get it right away, you knew that there was something there to get. And after you saw it live, I think it made that much more sense.

Like I felt like, you know, that was, uh, that was a special recording. Um, and there were things about it that I liked more than what I thought I achieved with set it off, you know, sonically. Right. Uh, but, you know, that's not the point of set it off Madball. Madball set it off was this just big, ugly, nasty thing that just was breaking out of a cage, you know? Sorry. Yeah,

But Madball, the first four, I mean, Jesus, it's not a conversation for tonight, but you're in the same league, right? How many hardcore bands do more than two good LPs? There's like not that many. There's gotta be under 25.

I mean, to me, whatever complaints or issues I might have with the recordings, and again, I do to some degree with all of them, that's the engineer in me. That's the guy who's a little too close to it probably, right? but song wise, you know, delivery of the performance of those songs and the attitude that's still put forth that I don't have any, I mean that, that I'm very proud of with all of it.

You know, it seemed like the heavy hitters, at least that we would say, were like either not playing or out kind of doing other things. And New York was in a period where like, I don't know, there was kind of like, it needed new energy, you know, it needed new bands. It needed like, um, uh, it needed, it needed to like kind of regenerate or something, you know, it was kind of dying out. Like shows were weird. Um, and it wasn't actually, it wasn't the best time to start a hardcore band.

You know, it just so happened by default, Madball started in the early nineties just because I was in the city. Hey, we're going to do this thing. We're going to, all right, let's try it out. And then we just kind of did it for the fun of it. Not because we thought, oh man, let's capitalize on hardcore because it's hot right now. No, not at all. Or let's capitalize on it because we're connected to AF.

Not the case because that helped us to a point, but it didn't bring more people to our shows initially in the beginning. That started happening after Set It Off. And so for whatever that's worth. you know, so in the earlier nineties, it was hardcore was a tough going to another one of those kind of like, uh, reconstruction phases, you know, where it was kind of morphing into, uh, the third generation or whatever you want to call it, you know?

And, um, we were part of that, you know, us and crown of thorns and a bunch of other bands, you know? So, um, Yeah, and H2O and bands like that, like a bunch of us, we just kind of like, I guess, sort of leading that third generation. And then we dropped Set It Off. And then out of that generation of bands, I guess you could say we kind of started to get a bit of a head start because we were signed to Roadrunner and they were a European label and they were a strong, independent label.

heavy music label and they were really big in Europe. So we had already planted a seed there and planted a flag there. So we started going there a lot. And then that's really where we kind of gained a lot of momentum.

And then in the States as well, you know, like we, we did a couple tours in the States where you could see like people were paying attention, you know, Europe, you know, is still always going to be, I think, hardcore is always going to be a little bigger than, than, than America, you know, that's always going to be the case, I think. But, uh, but yeah, no, uh, when we dropped that record, the label pushed it and we toured a bunch. And so it was kind of like all the right elements.

But I, You know, they were technically after the matinee heyday of the 80s. Right. And I don't know. You know, it was certainly a great stage and the sound system was great. But at the time I'm doing it, the scene wasn't exactly as strong as it eventually became again in the mid 90s where we were playing at wetlands. And you had Madball, 25 to Life, Crown of Thorns. I mean, Breakdown was still playing and had a good run in those days. God, who were the other bands that were... Oh, man.

How can I not remember? Bulldoze, right? Who were good friends of ours. I mean, we were starting... Oh, Vision of Disorder. Shit, see, that's where I'm trying to get to, right? There were good bands with a diverse kind of style and approach, but we were all playing together at the same clubs, same shows, and it became like a... you know? So I felt like it took a little time for that scene to build up to that level again.

And by that time we were getting great response and, you know, shows were, you know, still on the relatively small side, you know, four to 500 people, but, you know, in a smaller club, that's a, that's a good time.

It was kind of like the precursor to what Set It Off would be in a way, kind of, sort of, you know, because that was where Matt Henderson came into the mix. But Set It Off will probably always get the crown for being like one of our most important releases, if not our most important release, you know, even if it's not our personal favorite, whatever, whatever. I think it's going to be always go down as one of the most important ones for Madball.

Uh, for hardcore, I would hope I would imagine, you know, uh, even though it wasn't like, like I said, it was a different time, a different era, a different generation, but I think some records transcend that, you know? So I think it's like we said, it's like a good record, a good record or an important record, an important record. So I don't care when it came out. It's, it's, it's important to the culture.

So I would hope that that's a record that's going to be, um, at the top of the list there somewhere in hardcore history and

He's hands down one of the funniest human beings you could ever be in a room with. And so spending time with him was a treat, but then also writing music with him. And the guy's got such a rhythmic delivery that I can only try to achieve. And I was so thankful that I had a partner that could bring an extra flavor to music that I'm a part of in the way that he did. And then, you know, New York hardcore.

I mean, I was thinking about this before getting on this cast with you because I've just been thinking about all the things I knew we were going to get into. And one of the things I just used to love was when when in those days when we get up to play, we get up on stage, just have our things all situated, waiting. Freddie would walk up and just look at people. It's almost an awkward silence, but he wasn't awkward.

I think maybe anybody else was, and it would just be, we're Madball from New York City. And then just, boom. And it's like, yeah, because that's what we're there to tell you. You know what I mean? We'd say it in New York. We'd say it in New Jersey. We'd say it in California. We'd say it in Belgium or Austria, right? I mean, we're Madball from New York City, and this is it. So that was... New York hardcore. We've waved that flag everywhere we went. And then hardcore, right? I mean, we...

So I'm not going to play like a riff that sounds like a country song. It's just not something we're going to do here today, right? And yeah, I mean, I wanted to be, I wanted people to think of me. set it off in the same way they think of those records. I'm very conscious of that.

We're from New York City and we're cool. No, it's not what it was, but it was, we wear it with pride. It means something to us. Hopefully you'll dig it too. And if you don't, well, we don't really give a fuck. You know, that was the attitude. And I think, I think there was enough sincerity that maybe even for bands that are people that didn't really necessarily think they thought they were fans of New York hardcore, it made them at least respect it.

We literally meant it and we're still... We're all still out there, the same people we've been since that time, to say, yeah, we meant it then, we meant it now, and it's good to see that it's resonated with

You know how hard that is to do? You're writing songs with like such a limited toolbox and still making something creative and special. I mean, that's the glory of punk rock and hardcore, right? Like making something creative out of limited resources, right? and making it timeless?

And, you know, if you've ever heard one 12 bar blues song, you'll hear 10 more that sound very similar. But if you don't play that, you're not playing the blues. And there are millions of people who love the blues, right? I don't think there's quite millions of people that love hardcore, but there's a lot of us out there. And, you know, it's, it's hard to define, right?

Cause I mean, you know, there's a lot of different, there's been a lot of different bands out there that have approached hardcore with a dip, you know, it's kind of differing musical characteristics, but somehow, you know, it's a hardcore song, right? That's what's interesting to me about hardcore, but it does have its confines. And to me, it's almost, uh, it's almost a challenge. So make good song, right? It's the song that really counts to me.

That's what, that's what, You know, that's what you're communicating with is the song.

And my girlfriend at the time and I were driving up to Toronto to go to the Toronto Science Museum and to have some sort of date type situation. We get over the border on the drive up there. Everything's great. We're listening to the radio. On the radio comes an ad. Tonight, free show. I can't remember the venue. Maybe the El Macombo, if that sounds correct to anyone in Toronto that hears this. Maybe that's wrong, though. Tonight, free show. I believe it was like a Roadrunner tour, like Madball.

Machine Head, Stuck Mojo, that's all a guest too. I looked as she was driving. I looked over at her. She knew we were going to the show and not the science museum because that was way more fucking important. This was the first time I saw Madball live show live.

Stepped everything up to the next to the even next level because Freddy's one of the best front men ever they were so tight and fucking hard-hitting and Yeah, set it off one of the greatest records ever Madball one of the best to ever do it

It has traditional hardcore grit and grime to perfection.

Then it also has... an ability to channel different segments of hardcore that had come before in a seamless way so it's got this brilliant mixture going on and then it's just got unbelievable swagger and almost like a mafia crime story film built into it as well so This album gives you a bit of everything, but what I find so interesting about it is that if you're going to look for peers for it, at that point when this came out, there is no real peer.

There's nothing that has come before it that makes you go, oh yeah, yeah, it's definitely this. You can pick certain albums that you know that it's got parts of it in, like Don't Forget the Struggle, Don't Forget the Streets, it's got some of that charisma and bounce and hip hop influence. It's got some victim in pain, obviously, coming from the lineage built in there as well. But then it's also got something that it's developing on its own.

There's even touches of youth crew and everything, but there's just something about the ability to channel the harder side of life into a musical style. Now, that might sound funny to some people, but really think about it. These are songs about hard situations, about a hard life, and it is reflected completely in a New York City crime story almost. It channels that perfectly. And then when you think about the way the album plays unfolds, starts with Set It Off, it just blows you out the gate.

It is the most upbeat, aggressive, in-your-face calling card of an opening track ever. It's unbelievable. And then Lockdown comes in and it just... it doesn't let up. Like the album goes from, you know, fifth gear to fifth gear again. Um, the fuck you, fuck you, fuck you and your system too. It, whoever thought something so like aggressive would be so catchy at the same time, like absolutely unbelievable. Um, New York sea, it just builds to that mosh.

And, um, we've discussed on the podcast in the past that Hatebreed is the album, like Satisfaction is the album that changes hardcore where everybody's going into a breakdown. But you know what? This is the precursor that is showing Hatebreed what to do, in my opinion. Like this is showing them, you know, when a mosh is the focal point of a song, the song is better for it.

lot of the times especially in hard hard as fuck hardcore like this then you know it goes and then arguably one of my favorite songs on the record it's time is just lyrically amazing it's just talking about like you don't you don't fucking know us like and we will smash you. I love that. And then it, and then the best part of it all is, you know, the self-referential lyrics talking about hardcore lives through me. And what could, what could, there's no lie there.

You know, this band is made up of hardcore veterans and hardcore lifers. And it says it. And then from there to go into the, uh, crucified part is just, it's just the best. And then, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to break down every single track because you'd probably be bored by me doing that. But can we please just have a moment of silence for the upbeat, hardest marsh of all time across your face? All right. That's the moment of silence right there. Cause I

You got to think this, you know, we've seen it and you're probably numb to it at this point, but there's a baby playing with a gun on it with, uh, you know, mad balls, nineties logo, just absolutely perfect with the pseudo Lonsdale look to it. And then the back cover, it's got the graffiti. It's got the American bulldog in the Pittsburgh Steelers Jersey. I really want to know which, uh, which player that is, that he's rocking the jersey of.

But I can't speak enough about coming to this album a little bit late because of, you know, I grew up going to shows at the Che and, you know, in the 90s, Tougher Hardcore was looked down upon for... I know that's very hard to, to imagine, but like in a pre-internet world and lots of rumors flying around, lots of these tougher hardcore records were bypassed because of, you know, just the scene that came from sort of, but you know, it was only a couple of years later I got into it and boy, did I

ever get into it? Like this is, you know, a top, top 10 record of the nineties, top, top record of hardcore history ever. So, you know, respect to mad ball, eternal respect for this album, set it off. And you know, what's great. It's not that only good record, every single LP that they've put out pretty much is great, but hold it down. Like in 2000, You thought, you know, Set It Off was their pinnacle and then Hold It Down comes out and you're like, how does one band have two Mount Everest's?

Well, this band does.