17. Burt Jenkins & Aaron Cooley (Built to Last/Safe Inside Records)

You guys ever... ever saw that it's it's got a picture of like a brick wall and like fake spray paint that says san diego's hardest but um i think at that time we were heavily and still are into we were into like um new york hardcore bands biohazard sick of it all so we were trying to uh be that type of hardcore at that time but yeah that was the that was the demo that started it um that lineup didn't last i don't know too long i think we got you in right after the first um i think it was 96

yeah it was after we released loyalty and betrayal yeah because you guys were just getting ready to um record what was that six song ep self-title self-title yeah so you guys were getting ready so i ended up being on that recording so it was just before that right i remember we had to have a tryout for him when he joined the band and uh He missed a couple cymbals, so I wasn't sure he was going to work. This is the best story.

First of all, you've got to throw it out to Razor Don Cajon for introducing me to the guys to be able to play. So I remember... I was playing for like Scheller at the time. And so, you know, that was more just hit the cymbals, you know, I baseball bats for drumsticks. And so I was like, I got the their first CD and they're like trying to learn. I think I learned like four songs. So I went and I just the first time I met them was just showing them showing up to the where they practice.

So I get set up and we go through it and I... I freaking nailed it. I nailed it. I nailed it. So we get out there and... Brett's like, yeah. Sounded pretty good, man. You missed like four cymbals, though. And I'm just like looking at him like, wait, huh? Well, it ended up working out okay. Yeah. I let him be in the band. Well, you know what?

It was funny because they were super pumped because I pulled up in my truck and I had this super big drum box that held all my drums so I looked all professional. Yeah. Yeah. Having cases for the drums does make you look very professional. It wasn't even cases. It was a box and The whole thing rolled. Oh, shit. Everybody was already sold when you just drove up. They were like, oh, God, look at this guy. Oh, yeah. He's good looking. Me, I was like, nope. Got to pass the drum test.

But, yeah, so that's when the demo first came out. Yeah, so let's go back and talk about the intent behind it. What was the intent of starting Dope the Last? You just wanted to do a New York hardcore band. New York hardcore-ish type band in San Diego. Yeah, me and my friend Donnie, like I said, we grew up, you know, that's all we listened to, Gorilla Biscuits, you know.

jocking biohazard like big time you you if you heard the demo you would you would be like oh my god that's like a biohazard song type stuff but yeah we were in the new york hardcore and we wanted to play that type of hardcore because there was nobody in san diego doing that for sure i mean it was i i don't i can't recall any hardcore bands like that or you know like us for for the matter but that that was the intent we're just like hey we want to start a band so we did we got we got our friends

together and I met Dave Kennedy through some people, and that's where it just kind of went off from there. And that was your first band? I was in a few other bands. Like, just briefly before? Just briefly, but not in anything. When I was younger, like 14, 15, I liked punk bands. Because by the time you did Boat to Lassie, you'd been going to shows for a long time, right? Yeah. When did you start going to shows? In San Diego. I think my first show in San Diego was at the Shea Cafe show.

Man, I had to have been 13, and I saw The Descendants at the Shea Cafe. I think it was like maybe 84, 83. But from there on, I kind of just started going to a lot of shows in San Diego, to a lot of the older clubs and stuff like that that are no longer around, Palisades, stuff like that. Watching a mixture of punk and hardcore bands. Did you get to go to any of the shows in that Chula Vista garage? Yes. Where they said like Judge played. Yes, I was at that.

Yeah, I was at the Judge show and the Verbal Assault show. Tell me about a little bit. People love hearing that stuff. But that's back when I was still a skinhead. And we were, me, Donnie, we had friends. We were skinheads, but we didn't listen to OI, right? We were, you know, boots and braces with, you know, agnostic French shirts, war zone. We were into hardcore, but we were skinheads. So let's talk about the start of that. Let's go back to that. What made you decide to want to be a skinhead?

Ran into a crowd of sharp skinheads, older guys, and just kind of started hanging out with them. Your what age and their what age? At the time, I was maybe 16, and they were like in their early to mid-20s. Cool. And they were just like super cool guys, and I just started hanging out with them. And then from there, it's like, hey, why don't you shave your head? All right. Here's some boots.

So you kind of get into it that way, and you just kind of – I wouldn't say I idolized these guys, but they treated me good at a time where my home life wasn't super awesome. So I felt like it was a group of guys that I could depend on and hang with and got into the skinhead scene. And that's 87-ish? Yeah, I would say so. You were 13 and 84? I'm 48, so yeah. Well, you're saying you're around 13 and 84. Yeah. So you guys go to shows together? It's like a big crew? Yeah. Oh yeah.

We'd go, we'd go to a lot of shows. We went to a lot of shows in San Diego and then we'd go up to like San Francisco and Oakland and hang out with those guys and go to shows. But getting back to the judge show, you know, whenever we would show up to shows, it was always kind of like tense, like, Oh, skinheads are here or whatever and stuff. But I met Rob and all the amenity guys at those garage shows.

And those are the guys that kind of, changed me because even though you know let's be honest when you're a skinhead just because you're not racist doesn't mean you're like the nicest guy in the world right i kind of wasn't a nice kid back then but um i have never heard that yeah rob was just telling you about it but i met rob moran and stuff like that and became really good friends with them and that kind of you know they changed me as a person i mean i could talk all night about that

transformation of from being a skinhead to meeting all those hardcore kids and straight edge kids and stuff and then finally fitting in where i felt like man this is this is where i want to be over here was was cool you know but but i think that's a good story to tell because it's something that hasn't been on here yet right right so let's talk about the height of knuckleheadism yeah i mean tell me a story uh we go to shows at the shea cafe and we weren't liked you know what i mean um You know,

and honestly, I was joking with Rob. Rob told everybody a story about there was going to be a big fight with a lot of skinheads and a lot of punk and hardcore kids. And in the middle of it was me. And Rob was like, you know, I know that guy. You know, it's fine. You know, nothing's going to happen. We never really went to shows with the intent to fight people. Like that wasn't my intent. I wanted to go to shows to go to shows. You know, did I hang out with some knuckleheads? Of course.

Sure. But we didn't like before the show go like, hey, let's go and fight. But the minute we showed up there, everything got tense. And then it made us tense. You know what I mean? And then just kind of everybody's building off of each other and then, you know, stuff happens. So I didn't have a good reputation at the Shea Cafe for a while back when I was, you know, we're talking 16, 17. And, you know, I regret those days. I, you know, I think that's why...

Over the years, the hardcore scene, I've went out of my way to do what I can to make up for those days. Well, yeah. I mean, if anything, I would say that Built to Last is a very big unity band. Oh, totally. Very accepting to like everyone. Oh, totally. Yeah, I mean, our goal wasn't just, oh, we're only playing with hardcore bands or I don't want to play with this band. Like In Control, you know, you guys were younger kids. You guys used to support us.

I would always try to get you guys on pretty much any show. We got you on a lot of shows in San Diego. I got a lot of... Punk bands, younger kids, you know what I mean? So my goal was just like, I just want everybody to have fun at shows, right? Because back in the 90s and the 80s, it wasn't always that way, you know what I mean? So I think I used Built to Last as kind of like a mechanism to make up for my past and to try to do things right. And I think I've done that.

I think Built to Last did a lot for the hardcore scene in San Diego. There's always those years where you have amenity. And then they're done, and then you have Unbroken who takes it. Sure. And then there was us. Yeah, but there was a slight gap, right? Unbroken breaks up in, or did they break up in 95? Is it 94 or 95? Mid-90s, I believe. Early to mid-90s. Was there a gap between Unbroken and Built to Last? I think there was. By at least three years, I would think. A couple years, maybe?

I wasn't in Built to Last when I remember being at the last Unbroken show at the Shea. Yeah. But the demo could have been out. The demo was out, and I remember we got our start. We played SOMA a lot. And this was before SOMA, you know, everybody realized that, you know, Len was a shithead and just dirty business guy and stuff like that. So that's where we got our start. Sure. I mean, we were playing. We got to play with AFI there. We played with Sick of It All several times.

Fuck, we even played with, do you remember we played with Papa Roach? Do you remember that? Yeah. We played with fucking Papa Roach. I don't even know how we got on that bill, but we headlined. And they were actually really nice guys into hardcore, but that's a funny story. But we got our start at SOMA, you know? Let's talk about it. Yeah, so we started playing like a lot of SOMA shows, and I think this was before you. Did you ever play SOMA? Did you play any of the Sick of It All shows there?

Yeah, I played the Sick of It All show when he was like, this goes out to the boys with the same name. But you weren't there for Papa Roach. Yeah, I was. Because I remember nobody paid attention to him, so the singer got naked on stage. Yeah, the singer got naked on stage. But I remember after they played and then we played, the singer came up to us and was like, oh, we love your band. We'd love to go on tour with you.

And I was just kind of brushing it off like, I don't think we're the same type of music. But they were actually nice guys. Two years later on MTV or whatever. Yeah, like two years later, I was like, damn, that band kind of blew up a little bit. Send them an email. Yeah, hey, can we go on tour? Remember us? We're ready for that tour. But yeah, so we started off playing like so much shows. And are you building up a following off the demo alone? We are. Kind of a big following.

We were starting to attract... you know, a hundred kids to a show. And then, you know, Lynn at the time was like, Oh my God, I'm going to put you on the main stage. So you're headlining the little side stage. Oh yeah. At a hundred kids. That was a cool little room. Yeah. Back then it was, it was a cool room. And you know, we had pretty much, we had a diehard, um, fan base and friends like alone. There would be 35 friends there.

Every bill to last show rollout, boom, hang out, you know, plus the kids that come to see us and stuff like that. And I remember back then, like, there was a lot of young kids coming to shows like their parents dropping them off. Yeah. You know, 13, 14 year olds and stuff. And I just remember talking to those kids cause they was come, they would come up to us and try to talk to us and stuff. And I just was always so, you know, just like, dude, I'll totally talk to you.

You know, I would always explain to him, you guys can do what we're doing, but you know, if you want to chat with us, sure. Have a seat, man. I'm down to talk about anything, you know, or whatever. We would have kids come up to us, and it's awkward, but like, hey, can you sign the CD? Sure. I would never turn anyone down, but I would always let them know, like, hey, you could be doing the same thing that we're doing. Agreed. We're nothing special.

We're just up on stage because we've worked at it or whatnot. Yeah, I think you have to do that, right, if a kid wants it. Yeah, you can't be a dick, but a lot of bands are dicks. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you – yeah. You're making the point and still doing it. Exactly. I would do the same thing. I guess you could make the point and not do it, but it's silly. It's funny when you're 15 years old and you see, I remember when I'd go to the Unbroken shows, I was like, that's Rob from Unbroken.

You can't help it. You just put everybody on a pedestal. And then when you get to a point where people are asking you the same thing, you go, yeah, I'm really not a big deal.

Yeah, it's like, all right, yeah, we'll... you know sign your thing or you know you feel stupid signing it but it did if it makes but sometimes people want something to remember from a show and and we don't know the circumstances either right so maybe they don't have money for a shirt right and maybe you don't have buttons of that show right i mean it's important for bands to remember when you go on tour when you do shows um if you really want to get out there to try to have stuff to sell of

every like you know from low money to higher right to try to always have stickers and pins because to give away yeah or just buy two for a dollar you know just because a lot of people want to have memories from shows and you know you don't know what people's circumstances are free stickers yeah long way yeah yeah yeah so taking it a step further of talking about you know talking with younger kids and stuff like that we got asked to play a kid's birthday party and these kids were like 13 and 14

And me, I was pushing for it. I was like, guys, we've got to do this. I mean, they – we couldn't do it, but Dave Kennedy and I showed up to the birthday party and hung out with the kids. And they were just – it was surreal. It was like they were so happy. You do a singer-songwriter set? Right. Bring an acoustic guitar and – There was a couple of like – Punk bands that played, and they were just so psyched that we were there watching them.

And that type of stuff made me feel good, you know what I mean? Not like I'm out making a big difference, but if you can be a positive role model or influence in someone's life, I'm all for that, you know? Yeah, I remember being, like, 17 and doing Voice of Defiance and playing, like, a show in Oxnard, and Tony Cortez from Ill Repute would show up or something. And it's like, it's a really nice validation. Oh, yeah. Like, you're doing something. Right, right, right.

But yeah, so after the demo, you do Loyalty and Betrayal. Right, with nothing left records. Okay, and where are they out of here? Now they were... What is the... God, I lived in Hawaii too long now. It's kind of like between here and halfway to Orange County. I forget the... San Clemente? No, it's past that a little bit. Up towards Orange County. I forget the area where the guy lived. Anaheim? No, it wasn't Anaheim. We're going to sit here forever. I don't remember. They were from close.

It's kind of close to that, I think. Laguna? Yeah. Getting closer. That's not the name. So, yeah, we got hit up by him, and he was like, hey, I want to put up your CD. And I remember we all met at Denny's, and we had to go over a four-page contract, which was really bizarre. I was like, okay, what are we exactly signing? But... Yeah, that CD came out. When that CD came out, that's when it really started moving for us. That's when, you know, we kind of knew we had something going.

It was just, we had to act on it and we had the tour and we, you know, started noticing like, damn, there's 150 kids at this show. Like what, you know, and the shows just from there just kept building. Yeah, is that when you start venturing out and going to NorCal and making those connections? To Oakland and all those guys up in that area, like Hoods, Rely, Powerhouse. Those were our boys. That was our home away from home.

When we went up there, we had the same type of reaction as we would in San Diego. People wanted us to play up there. We started doing those West Coast trips. That's when I started noticing that... man, this is something special. You know, at the time, you know? I mean... Well, the CD's wild. It sounds like nothing else. Right. I mean, I don't think you could recreate it today if you tried. No. If you sat down and were like, I'm going to do Loyalty and Betrayal 2. It's a wild sounding CD.

Well, I know. It's almost kind of silly to me, that CD. You know, when I listen to it, I'm like... It meant a lot, but now I'm just like, man, it's kind of silly, though. I don't think it is. I don't know, you know... It's always silly if you think it is. Well, no, I know. Just kind of... I think I always wanted to have a certain sound and I was never able to do that because I couldn't write music because I wasn't talented. Sure. But it's your first stab at it. Right.

And so it comes from a sincere place. And I would play songs off of that today. I was just saying like, it's just kind of just reminds me of like, man, it's kind of, but everybody liked it. A lot of those songs, there's a couple of anthems on there. You know what I mean? Yeah. A lot of songs that we would play, um, at shows, a couple of the songs off of that, um, People were waiting. Push. It's on fire. It's on fire. The special effects. Yeah, it's on fire.

It took me less than two minutes to write that. I'm just like, I'm just going to say this over and over again. It's a sick idea. It's a sick idea. Because when we brought you guys up to Ojai, that would have been after the self-titled CD came out. But when not everyone knows your stuff... You can just say, this song's called It's On Fire. All I say is it's on fire. It's a bunch of 17-year-olds that want to have fun. You know, it's a brilliant song.

And it kind of, that song, you know, there's meaning behind it for me. It was kind of just how I felt about the hardcore scene and what I imagined it should be at the time. Bunch of kids together singing along, having fun, you know. And even though the lyrics don't really say that, that's what that was. No, but that's what you freestyled in between. Right. When you're playing live. Right. So you could adapt it to every different show. That was cool.

Dude, I was pumped when I first put that CD in, and I was like, these are the songs I've got to learn. And when I got to It's On Fire, I was like, I can't wait to play this song. Yeah, it's a pretty iconic bass riff, you know? Key, the right. Yeah. Honestly, I haven't listened to that record or that CD in years. God, 10 years. I listened to it last week to do my homework for this. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. I enjoy it. How soon? Yeah. So, uh, you're getting popularity up in North.

And, uh, do you actually do a bigger tour off that? No, pretty much just West coast, um, West coast shows. I think the, the biggest, the big tour we did was the U S tour. I think that was off of, that was the main, that was off the record LP, right? Yeah, because we didn't even... Are you sure that was on? The EP, we just did West Coast. We only did the one... No, the self-titled EP, though. Yeah, we never did more than a West Coast. Okay. See, my memory's kind of bad.

I think you did your tour right after the LP came out. Yes. The only full US tour we did was off of the LP. Yeah, and that was 30 days. Yeah, it's a long one. But we got on some good shows. We were fortunate enough to... play a week with 10-yard fight and landed on some pretty big shows. Pretty eye-opening, touring for that long. You realize you love your friends, but they can put you through mental hell in a van for 30 days. There's one of those great stories from that one. Let's get to it.

I almost sent Don home on the first day of tour. Let's talk about that. Tell that story so we don't forget. We're leading up to this tour and Bert's having full-on conversations with me like, If Don pisses me off, I'm going to put him on a plate. I'm going to put him on a plate. And so it's like he's already set himself up for this. Like he's just waiting for the... But me and Don were friends. It's just we were both grumpy. And when two grumpy guys get together, it's not always like...

They definitely know each other's buttons. And we hadn't even made it to Texas yet. And there's this just big fallout between Don and Bert. He's like, you're going home. You're going home. And it was like you knew it was only a matter of time that this happened. And then, and then from there, it pretty much, I don't, you know, that was after that event, there really wasn't a Don and Bert moment. Then it came down to everybody getting advice with Mertz.

And yeah, I mean, I even had it, you know, out with Dave one time and like Dave's the hardest person to get an argument with. Probably the best experience I've ever had though. And I miss it. I miss that stuff. Like dearly, you know? Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll get to it. Let's go a little chronological. So Dave, Then we do the self-titled CD, and that's when Aaron joins. Yeah. And I think that's the best release. Resurrection, put that out. Yeah, how did you meet up with him?

Man, I think I just submitted some stuff to him, and he hit us back and was like, yeah, I'll put out your CD. He had bands like E-Town on there and Hogan's Heroes. He was a New Jersey label? Yeah, I mean, he was a smaller label, but... He was awesome. I mean, he, he really wanted us to put that out with him like really bad. That was a good label. They put out like a good cross section of things. Yeah. So we, we put that record out with them and, and, you know, wrote that.

And that's probably one of my favorite recordings as well, even more than, and knowing is half the battle, but yeah, so we did that. And, you know, just like I said, you know, he, He sold a good amount. Back then, he was only doing CDs. I know some of the bigger labels were pressing records, but I think a lot of people were sticking to CDs and stuff. Especially more of the harder style music.

It seemed like it would be an American label would put out the CD, and sometimes a Euro label would put out the vinyl. Right, right, right. I think I have the E-Town record, and the CD is on an American label. Yeah, vinyl from a Euro. Time to Shine. The 25 to Life was kind of like that. Time to Shine actually never came out on vinyl. The second one, I don't know what the clouds. Second Coming. Yeah, that's the best one, by the way. Yeah, I wonder which one Resurrection put out.

It had to be Time to Shine. Time to Shine. Yeah, I think. They might have done the first two. I don't know. I love that band. Well, I love the first two records. And then it got a little away from what I like. Right, right. But yeah, so do you see, is the popularity... the same after the, no. So that, are you getting even bigger?

Well, I mean, so that's when I, we started noticing that we were starting to get people from the East coast that were at the time, it was like AOL chat rooms and stuff like that. And I was talking to people from the East coast and, you know, just the label only pressed a thousand of those CDs and they sold a thousand CDs in like four months. So he pressed another one. So back then, if you're a small band from Cali and you sell a thousand CDs, you're like, How the hell did we do that?

But I think the word just started spreading a little bit. There was a little bit of... We were getting a little bit of run. And I think that's kind of what led up and got us onto the Victory compilation. Yeah, you do a few comps around this time. There was the NorCal compilation. Actually, it was a worldwide compilation, but I think it was done by a NorCal dude that our only way... Yeah, yeah. Our Own Way. Our Own Way. Our Own Way. That comp is fucking awesome. God, I forgot about that.

Yeah, that one. And then there was a California Hardcore comp. Right. The Call to Arms. And then the Victory. And those are all between the EP and the LP. I'm glad you remember that. Man, I forgot about the other two comps we did. And those are all awesome. And the Our Own Way has Turn Away, the best version of it. That's great. We must have re-recorded it then. Well, you re-recorded it for the LP. Right. So that would have been the first version. Right.

Yeah. Because you didn't put that song on the... Only the Strong was a different song. Yeah, it was called Faded. It was only for that compilation. Yeah. And it's weird. So when we did that comp, we had to sign an eight-page contract. But after the comp came out, we got an email from... Tony Victory was... kind of chatting us up about seeing what our plans were and what we were going to do. Kind of almost like gauging us like, hey, do you want to maybe put some stuff out on Victory?

Well, he took NIV right around that same time. Yeah. Dave Kennedy didn't want to mess with Victory at the time. He just didn't want to be on that label. A lot of people did and weren't happy with him, so who knows? Yeah, but for that time, I mean, that could have been a good... It could have been a good move. Yeah, so... You would have had vinyl out. We would have had vinyl out. Yeah. So. Yeah. So same thing. You're just killing it here and killing it in NorCal.

Yeah. And then you decided to do an LP. Yep. And who did the LP? Resurrection. Again. Yeah. So do you get a bigger budget? Anything? Yeah. They gave us like $8,000. They gave you $8,000 to record? Yeah. So that, first off, I thought was ridiculous. Because you're going into debt for it though, right? You got to recoup it and pay it back?

Yeah. We don't sound like that. Right. And that record ended up sounding like that. It was thin. It had no, to me, the guitars were really thin and didn't have crunch or anything. So I was kind of, well, it was a little, that record is a little of the times that like it's post Bane blowing up. And so there's lots of octaves and that's very melodic. That's going to take away some of the meat. Yeah. But it's a different sound. It's not that it sounds weak or thin.

Well, and then at this time, Dave wrote 90% of that record. Yeah. The EP was still mostly, I think, Donnie writing. Yeah. So just totally different writing styles. Yeah. And I like melodic hardcore, and I think at the time we were doing that, it wasn't a popular time for melodic hardcore. That's for sure. No, no, no. I would say that, like, Bain broke it wide open. Or, like, Shy Halludes. But these are both bands that are... they also go the heavy way as well.

And like, so you guys would actually, yeah, you guys are kind of unique in that way of like being like a more melodic hardcore band and not being super heavy. But I mean, Hey, recording at West beach, I love bad religion. You know what I mean? The first penny wise, uh, seven inch, I own it. I love it. You know what I mean? I'm not going to lie. And so recording there was awesome. The guy, you know, he's a genius at recording.

Um, but yeah, we got an $8,000 budget and I was just like, It blew me away, right? Yeah. He's like, hey, I'm going to pay for your recording. I'm like, okay, I'm thinking, you know, a couple thousand dollars. Your budget is $8,000. I'd go to For the Record and then go on vacation. Yeah, exactly. We could record in someone's basement. So Westwind is like this small little studio and then we go up there and it's like, wow, I could play, you know, game of basketball or something. The thing is huge.

Yeah. It's crazy how much that stuff has changed though because then if you wanted to try to attempt to have a good recording, you did have to go to like a a bigger legit studio. And now there's so many kids that you have that have built on that record was recorded analog. Yeah. I still love analog, but you're not going to really, it costs a lot to record on it. Yeah. An analog now. So, but yeah, no, that was, that was a great experience.

I think for all of us, I mean, and that's when we really started feeling good. How long did you take to record it? Three days, I think? No, we were there like a week. Was it? Jesus. See, I'm terrible with... It's like a single day getting drum sounds. Dude, it had to be more than one day for drums. It was totally overwhelming. Yeah. We did spend one full day on drums. You're a really good drummer and I'm like, stop blowing smoke. Dude, recording with headphones is the hardest thing for me.

Okay. So every time I had to record and I had to put on headphones, I hated it. Yeah. So... Well, why do you need to? Well, I started just trying to put them around my neck and well, because they would play the, you know, they'd have, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta listen to that. Yeah. The scratch track. Yeah. And then they, you know, sometimes you use the tip, the timer and stuff like that. Yeah. So you just can't get around it sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember the only way I used to like to be able to record was live and it didn't happen then. And, So when I'm with the headphones and recording, at the time, I was struggling bad. Everybody get out of the room. Nobody look at me. We were not allowed to be anywhere near Bert when it was time for vocals. I don't talk about it a lot, but I got really bad anxiety and borderline real panic attacks recording. So that's why, if you notice all the albums, my voice is not the same.

Yeah, it's different each.

Yeah, it just really was weird when I was dealing with... anxiety and stuff over all those years it affected the way I recorded and yeah I was like get out of the room you know and they're all making fun of me and I'm that's normal though I'm inside struggling dude sweating and just he would play it back and I'd just be like oh my god it sounds like shit like well it's so hard singing because it's like you don't know how your voice is gonna sound on that day until you go and lay it down a little

bit and then even then from when you start singing your voice is gonna change so you gotta kinda lay down Lay down a few songs, and then that's kind of where your voice is going to be. And then you've got to hope that it holds up. It's terrifying. I can't imagine doing singing with having anxiety. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn't like anxiety just from recording. I would just have anxiety because I was dealing with that stuff for no reason, just to have panic attacks or whatever.

whatever and stuff. Yeah. But that'll give a normal person a panic attack. Trying to get done. Yeah. You're in that little closet, you know, and it's hot. Yeah. And, and you know, everybody's listening, you know, you're just like, if I make one little, I know. And yeah, drumming is a great example. Cause I've seen it with Matt and, you know, it's like, you want to get another good, you want to get a little bit better take out of him, but yeah, It's like he's getting more tired.

You know, he's getting inside his head and like, we just can't get past this one fill. And yeah, I've talked about it on the pod before.

It's, drumming back then was totally different than now because now you can punch in anywhere oh yeah which is fucking pathetic that's so pathetic dude I actually think that I had that capability at that at West Beach and he's like yeah I'll just bring you in at this point and I'm like wait I don't have to start all over you know where the previous because I had never recorded until I got with Built to Last so it was a whole new experience but I remember at West Wind there was one song and I

couldn't nail it and you get frustrated and then you're tired and it's just and you have everybody looking at you just like you know they're trying to be supportive but they're irritated I mean I think your drumming is probably above average with a lot of hardcore bands like honestly not just because he's my best friend he's to me he's one of the top drummers back in that time and I just you know I don't think he got a lot of credit for it but he was solid he was solid every time we played that

only cost me five bucks you know how bad the hardcore scene is good drummers what are you doing dude yeah well you always kept time everybody always asked you would miss a drummer you got asked every show if you wanted to do a another project because they were just yeah you'd miss you'd miss a symbol every once in a while I remember what I remember what show is speaking just real quick you must have dropped your sticks like six times oh every it was just like woo flying out of his hand I'm

looking back going but I hit so hard that like I would break sticks so often he had the little thing quick draw oh he was good though but he would keep time with just like one stick in the bass drum or something and it was just like yeah it was constant with me losing sticks and breaking them and when Bert wasn't looking throwing them at him and stuff yeah with keeping time with the one that's crazy when uh In Control, we six weeks did a CD of ours where we re-recorded the demo on the 7-inch.

And when we were done with the entire thing, the guy that engineered for us now, Armo, he's actually really good now. But he deleted one of the snare tracks on one of the songs. And it was like, what are we going to do? Like, what are we going to do? And so Tony had to go in and literally... Do the snare. Wow. Which is so hard because you have to lead in all the fills. So he's going... Thinking. It was crazy. He pulled it off. Yeah, luckily it was a very straightforward song where he did like...

Very basic fills. Oh, it was just one song? Just one song. Oh,

It must drive you insane, too, because I cannot listen to our recordings because I pick out stuff that I did wrong. Yeah. So it's like I can't just listen to the music. I'm just still listening to my drums going, I could have done that better. Yeah. What was I thinking? Yeah. You know, like... Yeah, you can't get too inside your head about that. It's like a... It's a time and a place. It's like a tattoo, right?

Yeah. Like almost everything you have, you would change it a little bit or place it a little different or something, but... No rock rats. Like, seriously. No, we got more misspelled tattoos than that one, right? Recording was always mentally draining for me because I was just so nervous. Yeah, I think it's mentally draining for everybody. I was excited about it, but I wasn't excited about... the actual recording of it. You know what I mean?

It just was, you're like excited when you get there and when you finish. Yeah. Like, or when it's time to go get lunch. Yeah. That's about it. But when it's just so that you just, or as the drummer, we were always first. So it's like, as soon as you're done, you're just like, yeah, now you can critique everybody.

Yeah. You would always like several times you would like push the speaker button and say something smart ass to us or, you know, yeah i mean being nervous in the studio is just you care about what you're doing and you hope that it gets laid down right for sure you know that's all it is right i think that if if you're not nervous that means you don't care about your art yeah you know or you just have next level confidence which right you're probably lying right you know yeah but it was just like

yeah i got this yeah hey well for the second retaliate record i did all my vocals in four hours What's up? Four hours. That was at the peak of my skill. That was like one

Yeah. So, after that, you do your first tour. Yeah. Do you book it? Does the label book it? Who does it? So, I booked some of it, but I reached out to a booking agent. Her name's Bonnie. Super nice. She booked, I think, 13 of the shows. Okay. And those were all the, you know, we played, I think we played with like six shows with Ten Yard Fight.

What happened? Yeah, so we played a show in Arizona and these two really nice, you know, a girl and a guy was like, hey, you know, do you... Because we would always... We'd be like, hey, we're looking for a place to stay because if we can avoid... having to use the record label credit card to get a hotel. We didn't want to spend all of his money, but he gave us a credit card for emergencies. Yeah, and this was back way before social media, so you couldn't pre-plan this stuff out. Right, right.

So they said, hey, you know, you can stay at our house. And we're like, yeah, cool, you know. And it's the summer. It's like a fucking 150 degrees outside, right? So we get to their house. So there's no air conditioning. All right. I can live with that. They're in Arizona, though, with no air conditioning. Not that worked. I slept in the van. Well, we both slept in the van. I'll get to that. But I went in to use the bathroom and I turn on the light and it's like a house of horrors.

There's like cut hair all over the ground. Huge. And I hate cockroaches. I'm talking finger-sized motherfuckers running around. Wow. Turned off the light, went there, and I go... Yeah, I remember. I'm not sleeping in there. I'm sleeping in the van. And I'm

Well, there's another place that we had to draw the line. Is that the Cat Piss House? Cat Piss House. Yeah, that was gnarly, too. We stayed at one of those in, like, Western New York, I think it was, one time. And it was... It was weird, man. Like the place still like kind of haunts me. Cause you know, you play the show and then you go to like this kid's crash pad after the show. So you don't really know what the surroundings are. And it felt like we were driving like way too far, you know?

And then it was like his, it was just him and his dad. They lived on this like abandoned farm. It was like going under because like, I don't know, their crops weren't good anymore. And, uh, The house is just generally cat pissy and cat hairy and whatever. No big deal. We're going to sleep there, right? We got sleeping bags. Whatever the fuck ever. But to use the restroom, the restroom was upstairs. And you went upstairs and there was this like weird narrow hallway that was like slightly leaning.

And it was like... Straight out of a movie. It was like, yeah, it was just on a slight lean. So it was just... Creepy. It led to a murder room probably. You looked out. Yeah. That's straight out of a horror movie. Yeah. And then like none of us said anything. And then like the next day it was like, hey, did you take a piss last night? Yeah. Like, dude, that fucking house is terrifying, right? Like, yeah, dude. You know? So Arizona, then you go to, you make it to Texas? Arizona, New Mexico?

No, we didn't play Austin. I thought New Mexico was definitely on the list. No, New Mexico would be next. So you got a memory from that show? I don't. I don't have a memory from that show. See, the first week, a lot of our shows got canceled. So it's like we got to Texas, and then we found out that that show was going to be starting at midnight or something. And so we were like, if we play this show, then the next show was in Florida. Jesus. So we were like, that's a two-day drive.

Good job, Bert. What kind of tour is this? I was a rookie then. I never booked a tour. I was doing this shit on AOL chat rooms. So this was the notorious Don and Bert fight. But then we opted to just, we bailed on that show because we thought the Florida one was going to be better. And we get all the way to Florida and we find out that the show got canceled.

So, you know, like by then, like, you know, we all like, rolled on tour with like a hundred bucks each yeah we thought you know where it's gonna last us and by the time we got to florida everybody had spent all their money trying to eat and stuff like that yeah but luckily we got to the east coast and things started looking up a little bit yeah we literally we we were allowed a five dollar a day allowance and Most of us, unless there was food at the show, ate once a day. Taco Bell, to be exact.

I ate Burger King for almost every meal, and I knew it down to... And it was funny, because every place I went, it was off by, like, five or ten cents, depending on the tax. Yeah. So I was always, like, trying to borrow, like... Because it was, like... I got the same meal every time, and it was five bucks. And I'm, like, borrowing, like, five cents from people, ten cents from people to pay the tax. Yeah. So... But it's still... And then when there was, like, free food, it was, like... game on.

Yeah. Fighting for it, you know, like. Yeah, it was rough at first, but, you know, we ended up getting to the East Coast and, you know, we had a show cancellation and then we were able to jump on a show with Reach the Sky and Ten Yard Fight. Where at? Virginia. Yeah. Was it Virginia? No, Virginia was the Strung Out show, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. What state? So long ago. Dude, it was so long ago. I might not be able to give exact accounts of what state, but all I remember is like a hundred kids.

During 10-yard fight, picking up change, dude. I was like, wow. Because I'd never seen this shit on the West Coast. Was this when they were singing, Straight Edge Brothers in the pit together. Singing Straight Edge anthems together. We're all friends if you're not high. No one will go home with a black eye. What album were they? In 99? It's probably the LP. No, Back on Track is 98. It'd either be their LP or they did one EP after that.

I just remember, though, there was 100 kids, whatever you want to call it, picking up chains or punching or whatever, and I was just like, this is what I want. I want kids reacting like that to us. They were so catchy. Our first big show was definitely when we got to New Jersey and played that indoor skate park place because that's where the record label was based out of. There was all these kids just ready to watch us. We sold a lot of merch, too. We were like, These kids are here for us?

Yeah, it was strange. And they were. It was crazy. Who else was on that show, do you remember? Hogan's Heroes. Okay. That's the only band I remember from the record label. No other big, like, you know, there was no bigger hardcore bands on that show. Was it Hogan's Heroes there or would it have been OS-101? It might have been OS-101. That sounds familiar. Yeah, because they did that record on Victory right around that time. Weird band.

Yeah. Yeah, so we played that show, and then I believe the next day we drove all the way out to the most east end of PA, and we played this skate park again. And this show was fully advertised of, come see Rob Mertz play in Built to Last. So there's like 500 kids there. I kid you not, we're like, wow, this is going to be awesome. They all just wanted to see Rob skate, and Rob didn't want to skate. So when we go and play...

We played for the other band on the bill, and then when they played, we watched them. None of the kids ever came into the show. Oh, that's crazy. Was that the show where the band before us was like, hey, we do New Direction, too. We're going to play that song. No, that was when we played in Connecticut. Connecticut. Yeah, that was another skate park we played. Yeah, we played some skate parks. Yeah, I remember that one. That's hilarious, though. We played it way better. Did they know? They knew.

They knew you were playing it, so they gave you... Yeah, they were straight up, hey, we're going to play this song, and we're like... Because that was our go-to song on tour. Just say fuck it, we'll play it too. The Gorilla Biscuits were broke up at that point, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, they were. They weren't playing shows. They were. Because they did that reunion stuff in like, what, 01 or 02? Yeah, way late. That's why we covered that song. No, they did it like right when I moved down here.

It was like 2011 or something. They definitely were. They weren't together when we were covering that song. And that was our go-to. That was our bread and butter on tour. You play that song, you're getting action, right? Yeah. Plus you play it like Slayer style.

super fast so this band i i don't remember the name they said hey uh we know you play the gorilla biscuits cover uh and we're gonna play it too and i was just like what do you say to that like no i was like okay cool and they sure as hell did it and i didn't even recognize the song oh yeah so i was like oh good it was terrible we're still gonna play it dave she's like i don't want to know if we should play this fuck yeah we're still gonna play it so But yeah, the shows definitely got better on

the East Coast. Of course. We played a show in Queens with not bigger, bigger bands, just like local bands and stuff. That was the show where the guy asked if he could borrow my microphone. Do you remember that? Why, did he bring your own mic? I brought my own mic on tour. Because I like to use my... I don't want to get sick or whatever, so I figure if I have my own mic, but... The story gets better. But everyone's lips are on it when you're passing the mic. I know, but just, I don't know.

Yeah, no, that's cool. No one was really singing along on those shows. When I did Somali and I was playing guitar, I would use like that clown nose. Because then you really got to be up on it when you're playing guitar. Yeah. And I didn't want my lips on someone else's mic. Right, right. I was probably a germaphobe, but this guy's like, hey, you know, can I borrow your mic? You know, the mic's broken. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. This guy was... Deep throating my mic.

No, it was like in his mouth when he was saying it. He was sweating. I was just like, fuck. Yeah, you see him like swinging it like this all chaotic. He wasn't swinging it. He was just eating my microphone. So I had to, I remember after the show, I had to take it apart. I'm like trying to clean it out and stuff, but. Queens was kind of, we did, that's the only show we played in New York and it was good. You know, we got strange.

That was the first time that I learned that there was like fads and hardcore about like clothing. Okay. Like they were like, kids are like, Oh, we're in like Nautica and stuff. And I was just like, what's, what's going on here? It's so weird. I felt out of place. Like, and like people were trying to explain to me now, Oh, that's what's in out here. I was like, Oh,

show started no yeah I'm terrible do uh I can remember it's like kind of Midwest over to Seattle I thought yeah it was definitely oh you played your way back with them yeah so we went we went down up and back yeah through kind of the middle well and there was what's the band that we played like Washington and Seattle Downshift or something like that oh yeah oh Downshift from Norco I think they did a split they did a split with Strength by Strength I think it was that those guys were super cool

But we went up and down the mid-states. And I think a couple shows got canceled. We tried to get on the Saves the Day show. I swear we played 10 skate parks. And we played this one show. Remember the band? I think it was called the Hardcore Motherfuckers.

oh yeah there's like this girl yeah dude she was badass though the name of the band was the hardcore motherfuckers I don't remember but she says she's like she's like yeah I used to be a cheerleader but then I got introduced to the cheeseburger and like the song was like moo Move! Move this motherfucker! It was fucking hilarious. She was down for her shit, though. She was super nice, too. She'd kick your ass. Some of the stuff you come across on tour is just awesome. The hardcore motherfuckers.

It's gotta be Nebraska or some shit. Yeah, it was definitely in the middle states. She's a juggalo now. Probably. We played with Strung Out. That was Virginia. Yeah, and we almost beat their ass after the show. Do you remember that? Did we? Tell a story. Bert's always trying to beat somebody up. No, it wasn't me. It was Dave Kennedy. Bert hasn't told a single story about beating anyone up. No, it was Dave Kennedy. So we played with Strung Out. We played at a bar. It was all ages.

And Strung Out was taking pop shots at Straight Edge on stage. And we were like, okay, they know we're Straight Edge. Well, some of us were. I don't think all of us were Straight Edge at the time. Everyone was Straight Edge at the time. Oh, I can't remember. Yeah, Freddie, Dave, you, me, and Rob Mertz. Yeah, we were all straight edge. We never said we were a straight edge band, but we were all straight edge.

So they were just talking shit about straight edge and they were directing it towards us. And I just remember Dave Kinney going like, I'm going to fucking, we're going to fuck those guys. Let's go out and fucking kick their ass or whatever. And we go outside and they're in their fucking big tour bus, huge tour bus. And I just remember them.

throwing trash out the window like pizza boxes and like at you or just being just outside just being obnoxious we didn't end up getting in a fight with them but it came close because they were you know they were taking pop shots that was a good show there was a lot of people there so there was a famous skater in the band I never knew this Rob Mertz for a minute he's pretty big he skated for Zorlack good guy Yeah, I didn't know that. He was one of the guitarists?

Yeah, he played guitar after, I believe, after Donnie left. Yeah. Yeah. We brought him in as a second guitarist, and then Freddie switched to bass. Like, if we ever did a reunion show, I would want Rob Mertz to do it. Yeah, and then Freddie switched off bass to get a car again when you got Scott. Yes. Yeah, later on then Rob didn't play, and then it was Freddie and Dave on guitar. Yeah, Rob got kicked out of the band. And there was like 10 bass players in between then.

Yeah. Why did you kick Rob out of the band? I didn't. Dave did. Dave just never liked it. They just never saw eye to eye on music. Yeah. Every time, and I can see how it was frustrating for Rob, because every time he showed us a song, Dave just kind of... Put the kibosh on that. Yeah. I mean, not even try to work with it, right? And, you know, because the stuff that Rob was bringing us sounded like Strife. And we're like, all right, dude, we're not a Strife band. But he was trying, right?

He was trying to write music. And I was like, well, can we do anything to these riffs? Let's work on it. Yeah, you can work it into a breakdown or something. But sometimes when someone just brings a riff in and you know what you want to do with the band, it's just, I'm sorry, man. Dave made it clear he was... The songwriter. Yeah. One of the songs on the LP I wrote, so I don't know how I snuck that in. I won't say which one it was, though. Yeah, which one was it? I don't remember.

It's always like... That probably went over real well on the microphone. I think that's Broken Backs. That's an overriding body song. Yeah, exactly.

So are you finding that people are... connecting with built to last like in different spots out there like do they know your songs back towards the west coast i think more besides like jersey was like the home away from home it seemed like they knew some of the songs we had kids singing along not a whole lot yeah i mean it was our first tour right sure um well first and only but well right but on the east coast at least yeah yeah but i noticed when i got back because we were like we're going

again yeah I booked like two weeks worth of shows in like three days. Yeah. So it was coming. So demand was there. It was coming together. Yeah. You know, we were able to get on shows with Ensign, um, just bigger shows. Right. Um, and it was coming together and then that's when it just out of nowhere, we're leaving the band. Yeah. So you want to tell that story? Yeah. I mean, who got it wrong?

I don't think a lot... I mean, I think people have their theories on why Built to Last broke up, but I don't think they were in the band, and I don't think they know exactly what transpired. So the breakup took me by total surprise. Okay. There was never talk of, we're getting tired of the band, maybe we should play a last show, let's break up, whatever. So I started booking this next tour for us on the East Coast. Yeah. And then I don't exactly remember... No, I mean, I knew about it.

So Freddie had met up with this guy who had made this song and it got played on like... Whatever that rock station is up in LA. K-Rock. K-Rock. And like... So there was like people interested. And so Freddie somehow got hooked up with them. And then he was... He was playing with them. And then at some point... Dave got in on it. If I had my facts right. And... You know, every week I was hearing that they were, like, going to be playing in front of some big producer or something like that.

Do the showcases or what? Showcases. Showcases, because they were just, you know, what Trump wanted to be, you know. They wanted to do it as a career, and I don't fault them for that. Yeah. The way it went down was a little suspect to me and stuff, and, you know, I mean, it's... To this day, I don't think... I know I joke around with Aaron a lot. I don't have complete closure with that band, because we worked hard. We worked hard for five years, and then... we were there.

I felt like, you know, the record was selling good. You know, um, I think in six months we had sold like 3,500 CDs and it was just rolling. And then that like knife hitting you was just like, well, and I, and I had a big, um, part in just calling it quits because it got to a point where it was, we were now second fiddle and we, you know, I don't remember if we did, but... Segafield to who? To that other... Oh, to their side project, the new project.

This is all that they were talking about, and the interest, and, you know... I think at some point, Bert and I may have had a discussion, like, if they were to leave, like... You know, we could get, we could fill their spots, but I think at that point... Get Mertz back and hit those Strife songs. Dude, I was so over the fact, like, I'm not even the original drummer, you know, so it's like, it's literally Bert and nobody else, you know, so...

Well, stop there as far as not being the original drummer. Well... He may have not been on every recording, but in my eyes, he's an original Built to Last member. Yeah, but... Because he, he... Well, no, you're an original member. I appreciate that. You're not like, oh, just because I didn't play on the fucking shitty demo, you know what I mean? Like... You're an original member, so I don't believe... No, that doesn't count, Bert. We've got to keep it real.

If you didn't play on the first CD, you're not an original member. At this point, we've had at least five bass players. We've had multiple guitar players. It was just time. You know, and it's unfortunate because we had only just put out the LP and only toured once on it. And Birdsong, there was hype on it, you know. And we always played a good show. And I was really proud of that record. Birdsong doesn't like it. He'll say he doesn't like it a lot of times. And I really liked that song.

But I like more melodic stuff. Yeah. I just know if I repressed it on record, it would be remastered a little bit. Yeah. Not to give it like...

Like, the drumming on it is so insane. Yeah. Because he's doing this beat, the cheat beat, you know? But he's doing the, like the no effects, do that, do that, do that, do that, do that, do that, do that, with like the cheat punk beat. Right, yeah. It's like the illest. Like, when we talk about like, you couldn't go in and remake Loyalty and Betrayal right now. It's like... you can never remake that record. It sounds like nothing else, you know?

And they're like hanging on the cords for a long time, but it's like hard, you know, like, I don't know. It's untouchable. No, it's a great record. And I mean, you know, I mean, if we ever get to a point to where we can put stuff out that we're unsure of, I mean, I would love to release something from powerhouse. Like those were, those were our good friends back then. Yeah, no, I know.

Well, yeah, you know, powerhouse hoods and built to last were my favorite bands at that time and ignite, uh, But it was a little different. I knew all you guys. But, you know, I never met the Uniteds. Anyway. I never knew you guys drove up to see us and then, you know, during the week and left. That's amazing. I thought that kind of made me feel good. Yeah, when you talked about that, I was like, wow. Yeah, I think that was. That happened like twice, I think.

It was like there was one Empire Club show. And then I think it was you guys played with Good Clean Fun.

at the Shea at the Shea yeah and I was like well I don't need to see that you know we played some random shows yeah yeah I mean I just hate joke hardcore I think it's sorry oh like just kind of making fun of yeah I don't know it's like go do a different genre like for joke stuff you know so I never could get into that band I mean do you like Crucial Youth not really it's like who cares you know or like yeah Giggling Fun same thing like it's just sorry right you know I don't know. Whatever.

I mean, it's cool that people want to have fun and enjoy things. So, what happened to iRobot? Or what's the band? iAsteroid? Nothing ever happened. I think they just kept trying and then... I mean, at this point, we kind of just have moved on from them, so I don't think that we were... you know, talking about it as much. Like, I think people were bummed out that it happened. And then I think roughly at this time is when I started doing Over My Dead Body and just turned all my focus to that.

Yeah, and then how does that make you feel, Bert? Do you feel betrayed that, like... Not from him, no. I mean, it's... But it is him and it's... Well, I don't think there is... The way that some people try to tell the story is like, oh, well, you know, we recruited Aaron to play. It wasn't like that. Like, if there was a chance that... Like, if Freddie would have left... we would have had Bill to last still. Yeah. Like if Dave, me and him were there.

But I think the fact that Dave was gone and no, I never, I never felt betrayed. I think some of the ways some of the, some other people tell the stories of how we broke up is they don't know, you know, they weren't in the rooms when we were talking afterwards. Well, do you feel like you've represented the breakup now? What do you mean? Like, do you feel like you've set the record straight? Yeah, a little bit.

I mean, you know, like I said, I would love, My goal is to try to get Dave Kennedy to play one show with us because people want it. There's, you know, there's a lot of, you know, I find random stuff, you know, younger hardcore kids that I don't even know in San Diego posting like old photos of our shirts that they're buying. And yeah, I mean, if I if I did a press of the and knowing is half the battle, you know. We're probably not going to sell 500, but I think it would do good.

And I think playing one show would be... Maybe I'm just being... What's the word? It would be closure for me. If I could just play one show with Aaron, Dave Kennedy, and a couple of the other guys, it would be awesome. Because it would be great. People would show up and it would be fun. Yeah. I think that would be true closure for me. It would sell if we did... You know, we silkscreened the logo right on the record. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, it's... So Hunter the show for sure.

He's moved on. He's buying a drum set again though. So I'm like, Hmm. So we're like, he's just getting ready. He wants to do built the last 3.0. Cause I don't know if you remember 2.0. Yeah. Yeah. That's a C breakup. And that would have been what year? She's like 2000, 2001. Yeah, so it was right at the start of Over My Dead Body. And just to put it out there, I had never planned on leaving Built to Last to play in Over My Dead Body. I just wanted to play guitar.

Yeah, so you would have done both. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure I was starting Over My Dead Body and Built to Last hadn't broken up yet. Yeah, I think they overlapped. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was an overlapping. And I had no intention of leaving Built to Last because I love playing the drums. So it just got to a point where I just... was kind of over it. I didn't want to be second fiddle. And I could see that Dave just didn't have much interest in it anymore. He wanted to make it big in music.

That's what he wanted to do. And that's awesome. Now he's doing it with Angels and Airways again. I get it. Dave or Freddie? Dave. But Freddie never got to do anything. No. I actually just saw Freddie at the GB. And that was the first time I think I've seen him since the last Built to Last show. So it was weird. And it was just kind of like, hey, Freddie. Yeah. He's working and stuff. And, you know, I'm bummed that those friendships aren't there anymore.

Like, I don't have zero contact with Dave. You know, I made an attempt. You know, like, I got his number and I sent him a couple text messages, like group texts and stuff, and he didn't reply. So it's like, you know, I'll only try so much to stay in contact. Well, you've got to do like a San Diego Hardcore Barbecue once a year or something. Yeah. And you invite everyone. Yeah. You know? I mean, there should be something to like... You should be at least acquaintances.

Yeah. You have so much history together. No, but I think everybody is still though. I mean, we were at heart work. I saw Don, Rob, Audie, Moran, like all those guys, you know, and, and, you know, I get it, you know, but Dave just, he disappeared. He's not around. He doesn't contact us. He doesn't call us. And, I don't get that. I'm going to call him soon enough because I've got to get him on the pod. He might say the same thing. He might say the same thing.

Oh, well, Aaron and Bert never made an attempt to, you know. But, like, I ran into him, like, when Sam and Chrissy got married. And they had the reception at there. And then I talked with Dave. And it was awesome. I could have sworn he was at your reunion show, no? He showed up. But it wasn't really a reunion show. It was built to last 2.0. No, then he was at the Over My Dead Body reunion show. No, he played in Over My Dead Body. But did he play at that show?

No, he didn't play at your union show. No. He was just there. That's the last time I saw him. No, he showed up to the build the last one, too. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it was just me and Aaron and some kids who grew up listening to us. Yeah, so that gets back together in 2007? Yeah. Yeah. Who do you recruit? Tommy. A kid named Tommy. Yeah. He grew up going to Bill Tulasho's, Brandon. Well, those were all kids that you played in Safe and Sight with, right? Yeah, but that was after Bill Tulas.

But yeah, but they went to Bill Tulas shows. That's how I knew them. I thought that was after the, okay. So we just kind of got together and we're like, let's play some old songs, write a new 7-inch, and just, you know, have fun. Yeah. It was nothing serious, you know. Were you on that, Aaron?

Yeah. Yeah. But that show we played, the first time we played back at the Shea was in, insane that was super rad i was like wow yeah do you think if you would have just done that one show you would have felt like a little more closure than you have now if it was with dave kennedy yeah i got you it needs to be with dave i want it to be with dave but for some reason i don't know why he doesn't have interest in it i don't know if it's just like ads you know in the past or he's embarrassed of what

we did or what it is because he's never talked to me you know we Me, Aaron, and Don went to his place, James Coffee. We kind of threw it at him. He's like, yeah, but it's just never materialized. It's hard to find the time. I would like it to. It's hard to find the time. I got five kids, man. Believe me, I know about time. I haven't played drums since 2009. It's going to take a while. I get it. It would be a little bit of work, but it wouldn't be too hard. We'll see what happens.

How do you feel about that final build to last seven inches? It was good. I mean, it was different. I really liked the songs. I think it was different, but it was also in the vein of kind of reminded me maybe where it could have went. I liked all the songs. I mean, yeah, I just, um, they just had a totally different writing style than Dave, you know? So, but I liked the songs. Yeah. I thought it was cool. I won't listen to them because I hate listening to my recordings. I liked them at the time.

Yeah. That was really short lived though. So how many shows do you think you played? maybe seven or eight. That's kind of a lot. I think we played with half hard. That's like four years of retaliate. Yeah, mate. Oh, really? They're like twice a year. Every once in a while, so. That's how it's still so fun. We tried to, when we got back together, you know, there were some bigger bands in San Diego and we would try to be like, hey, you know, can we get on the show?

And it was just kind of like that type of stuff. Well, who? I don't want to talk about, I don't want to, it just, it's a sore subject with me because I feel like I kind of did a lot for a lot of other smaller bands that were out there. But then when we got back, it was like pulling teeth to try to get on bigger shows or whatever. And that's when I was just kind of over it. I was like, you know what, man, you know, let's not do this anymore.

So, but we'll build the last can play with retaliate anytime. Dude, you guys will be on the reunion show and in control. That would have to be, that would have to be in control. It's too much work. It's too much work. Like when we did our first reunion, we practiced for three months. So we just want to represent ourselves really well. It's too much of a hassle. And Ryan, Ryan works like two jobs. It's like too hard to do. Yeah. And I, you know, I live here and, and he's up there.

So it's four hours apart. Yeah. So people ask me all the time just for like little things like, Hey, real pretty brewery. You know, you guys want to play like, Hey, I'm doing this show. I want to play. It's like, you know how much effort goes in? Like, you know, I mean, it would be, I mean, I would have to fly in from San Diego at least for a weekend. From Hawaii to San Diego. Yeah, and I'd have to get in shape.

Yeah. For, you know, I'd have to start working out for three months so I don't have a heart attack on stage. Maybe he could get Don to be his trainer. Yeah, let's circle that. Aaron, what is the year of Don's peak buffness? Well, Don was never buff. He was in shape. He was in shape. I'll give him that. He was more swole at some point than he is now.

I don't even know that I wouldn't, you know... use that word with Don like and I know he's well you were okay but you were a beast so like you don't see it like that probably right like anyone anyone slightly inferior to you like looks like a fuck yeah I mean well when you're hanging out with punk and hardcore kids like if you have any kind of muscle you're like the big guy yeah you get a lot of oh you're a jock but then when a fight starts who do they look to yeah they're happy to have you

around yeah exactly I can't remember who told me... I love you, Don. I can't remember... Tell me if this story is true or not. Someone told me once there was like some sort of brawl. I think it was at the Glass House. There were some Nazis. And there was like some super big scary guy. And I heard... He was like... Get a fight, like, either you or Dave. And, like, you and Dave are arguing over who got to fight, like, the biggest, gnarliest one. Oh, and Dave loved him, dude. He was a badass.

But, like, in the middle of the brawl. Like, here's this one, like, untouched guy. And you and Dave are arguing over who gets to fight the gnarly one. And then, like, the guy was like, oh, shit. Yeah. I really never got a choice. Like, Dave was always the first. I mean, obviously, from the Shea fight, there was a fight in Redding that Dave's, you know, we didn't start the fights, but Dave was the first to make contact. Well, I picked up the folding chair and went Hulk Hogan almost, I know.

I did some shit. Yeah. No, well, yeah. You got Burt spraying mace at everybody

And what stage is eight inches, maybe 10 inches? It's like two steps, right? Or is it just one step? It's just one step. It's a pretty thing. But that guy was still eye to eye with me. He was right in front of me. And then the go-go gadget arm comes out.

flying across my face connects to that guy's face and i'm just i just see the guy's eyes just get wide like did i just get punched yeah and then it was chaos yeah yeah did you listen the full daniel episode yeah do you feel like he went through over over my body well that you don't need to jump in on any of that stuff um i he messed it up a little bit of how we started and it's funny because he was the one that did the interview on that indecision um DVD that came out.

And basically how Over My Dead Body started was Scott and I were playing in Built to Last. And I really wanted to play guitar in a band. It's like when you're playing the drums, you're second fiddle. Nobody ever notices you. You're the sweatiest guy in the band all the time. Nobody helps you. You got the most equipment. Burt was like the only singer to ever help me bring my drums up on stage and stuff. But you're a one-man show back there. Yeah. I wanted to play guitar.

And so I had been talking to Scott about playing guitar. And we were at the PCH talking about it. And we wanted to do something maybe a little bit more melodic at the time with a different style of vocal style. And so I think I hit up Daniel or something at the show and was like, hey, can you sing? And that's when he says it in that DVD. He's like, no, I can't sing. But I'm down to do an edge band. I think that's exactly what he said.

And so from there, it was just like, you know, I had already written a bunch of songs and so, and then he, he had asked Rob, so it's like, you know, what we did the first time is I played drums just to kind of put the songs together and then, I think it was Rob that, that knew Tommy, you know, and so from there it's pretty much accurate what he said, but I think it's just the start is, He's taking a little bit of the credit. Well, he's a frontman. You've got to have a little bit of ego, right?

Yeah, I mean... I mean, if you're a frontman without a little bit of ego, you're going to be... No, I mean, I've been fortunate to be with two of the best frontmen, I think, in hardcore, you know? Like, I feel like I got to play with the... I think Tommy is the best drummer in... The hardcore that I've ever... Dude, that guy's amazing. He was so good. He's so good, dude. He's so good. I miss that guy. I'm so bummed that he lives all the way up in Oregon. He's doing Moonkisser. Yeah, Moonkisser.

Right? And that's rad. They're really cool. Yeah. Yeah, I miss that guy a lot. Come back, Tommy. Yeah, come back. Okay, so... Jesus Christ, why did you guys choose a band name? It's so hard to say. I swear I'm not that bad at talking, but every single time... What would

The company I was working for at the time, they got super slow, so I was just doing random stuff. And so I found a company out in Hawaii, and I went out there, and then I said, hey, Bert, you want to come work for me? Yeah. And he flew out. He lived with me three months, brought the family out, and then I built on him two years later. No, you were there for a year, and then you left a year later. Yeah, because I was there about a year and five, six months. He's like, just come back.

I'm like, dude, I got a bunch of kids and stuff. I can't just move back. It's not that easy. I set him up with a really good job. It was hard. I've been doing good because of him. Yeah. What do you do? So I'm a... Well, I was brought out and I was an inspector for... Structural inspector for eight years. But now I work with a general contractor as a superintendent. Cool. So just... You know, running construction jobs and stuff. Yeah, I feel that. It pays the bills.

It's not the most exciting thing, but I'm able to do good and be able to do a record label and stuff.

You snip? I'm not. You're not going to? My wife got fixed. That's rude. It's harder for the women. It is, but our last son that was born, it was an emergency C-section. So they do it at the same time? Well, they asked her. And when they asked her, I told her, I was like, you know, I'll do it. And she's like, I don't believe you. She's like, I'm just going to get it done. Bert wants 10 kids. No, I got a good spread. It's been great for me. I mean, they're great. And they're loving Hawaii?

Yeah. They love Hawaii. Do any of them surf? They do. Yeah, my daughter surfs and my older boy, 19-year-old, surfs. How's your pigeon? Hey, brah. I don't speak pigeon, brah. No. That was terrible. I understand it. Do you understand it? Oh, yeah. No. I mean, being out there for 10 years, all the construction workers, they got thick accents and stuff. Yeah, so you got to pick it up. Oh, yeah. I mean, I know all the words. Cool. Well, let's start talking about the record label.

And this is an episode I haven't done all my homework for. So now you guys are together and you decided to do Safe Inside Records. What was the impetus of that? Aaron, why don't you speak on that? Well, I remember at one point Bert let me know that he wanted to do a record label and stuff. He had been talking about it and then he started doing it. And I was like... Wow, that would be really cool. Because, I mean, I'm like a lot of people. I'm older.

You know, I got a couple companies that I'm running. And no excuses, you know, but it's hard to be involved. I don't play in bands anymore. And I was like, hey, this is a chance to kind of still be involved in the hardcore, which has given me so much. I mean, half my life I've been playing music and hardcore. So that was my... I reached out to him. I'm just like, hey... very down. I don't, I don't want to just jump in on your gig, but I'd be down to like do this with you.

And he instantly opened his arms. It was like, hell yeah. And was announcing it on Facebook before. So, so had you already done a record? I did. I did one record. What was the first one? Nerve control. Remain in Vain split. Okay. That was the first one. Split 7-inch. Split 7-inch. SIR number one. Yeah, SIR number one. Just trying to get bands to... I like Nerve Control and, you know, I know the kids from Remain in Vain.

So, you know, when you first start a label, you just can't get like, oh, this band wants to do it. So you have to start somewhere. So I just hit up Hector from Nerve Control and Marcus from Remain in Vain. I was like, hey, you know, I'm starting a label. You know, do you guys want to put out a split 7-inch and... You know, they were both on board. Yeah. And I remember at the time of pre-orders, I think we sold like four records.

And at the time, it like didn't matter to me because the reason I started the label was number one, I'm in Hawaii. I have no friends. All my friends are here. I don't have that connection anymore with, you know, we talk, me and Aaron would talk, but there's no connection. I don't have my guys there. Yeah. So I started the record label to stay connected with hardcore.

Even though I'm raising my kids, working, I'm not one of those type of guys where hardcore was when I was this age and now I'm doing this. It's a big part of my life. It always has been. It always will be. It's not like... you know, all of a sudden when I'm 70, I'm going to start listening to like Lawrence Welk. I'm going to listen to fucking Scratch the Surface. Think of it all, right? Sure. Hardcore is a part of my life.

As cheesy that may sound, it was important for me to stay connected and be a part of it. Because that's what, you know, that's what I attribute, you know, to what kind of made me the man I am. You know, the influences within the hardcore scene, friends and stuff. And it was important for me to try to get back or help smaller bands or, you know, stuff like that. And that's when I started. I was just like, Hey, I'm going to start a fucking record label. Yeah. I don't care.

You know, I'm just going to do what I can. And it's just, it's getting crazy. Yeah. So Aaron comes in after the first seven inch. And had you already lined a bunch of stuff up or did you guys discuss what you wanted to do? I think

attract bands they're like who are you and you can give them your background i'm an old guy that's been involved with hardcore forever you know that doesn't matter it's like what can you help us with what can what can i do for the band or you know so you're in hawaii so it's hard for you to just like go and meet these people too right so i was doing everything from my computer looking up bands staying connected you know even though i'm in hawaii i'm connected with new hardcore.

Yeah, you still got the internet. I know what's going on. You got the internet in Hawaii? Yeah, no, but I got friends also all over the country and I'm like, hey, what bands have you been, you know, seeing that's, you know, really good or, you know, have you heard any good demos? Yeah, well, I heard you on the podcast, the... I apologize for...

Ill Street News. The Ill Street News and I thought it was interesting the part where you were saying you were emailing some people and they just don't even bother to come back. They don't even respond. That's so rude. You know... I look at it that way. Everyone has a minute. Why can't you just say no? Or why can't you just say, I don't have time to figure this out right now. Thanks so much for contacting us. We're not in the time to figure this out right now. Can you circle back in a few months?

Or what's your number? Let me reach out later. It's so weird to just dodge it. Even where we're at now, that still happens. Yeah. You see, like, two months later, like, this band is putting out a record on Triple B or one of the bigger labels. So you get it, right? But it's just like, just answer me. Be like, hey, man, I appreciate it. Well, that's the best response you could get. Right. Other than like, hell yeah, I want to be on your label.

It's like, oh, we already were with Triple B or some label, you know? It's like, that's the easiest response I can send. And then that's the easiest response for you to understand.

No, digital, dude. Yeah, I'm just wondering. I don't know. No, no, no. I'm just saying like, yeah, believe me. At first it was like, no, it's all digital. Digital is, you know, I don't get CDs in the mail, records, nothing. It's like, here's our new stuff. Yeah. And it's in WAV files and they send it to you. Yeah. But I make a point of responding to everyone. even if it's a letdown, you know, like saying, hey, we appreciate it.

It's just, you know, we got this lined up this year and we don't have spots. It's, you know, you can never say like, nah, I don't like your demo, right? So, but I respond to everybody and, you know, at least let them know I heard it and good luck. Well, we used to tell people we'd play with, fuck, I can't remember if I told this story on the pod. I'm sorry if I did. Bands, when we used to tour, like they would, hit us up and be like, Hey, can we get on Indecision? You know, this and that.

And like, you're playing with these terrible fucking bands in the middle of country. It's like, nah, man, like they're full, but we got a, there's this hot new label coming up roadside records, you know, like we'll, we'll submit your, uh, your CDR to them. You know, we'd drive up from the show and just chuck it out the window. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, you're signed. I've gotten some, I've gotten some awesome demos with videos and I'm like, holy shit. This is amazing.

Like, Because it's so crazy and insane and terrible. But, I mean, I try to respect everyone, you know? It's like, I feel flattered that people send me their demos and stuff. I think that's noble. Dude, we were all there. We all have been in a band where you're like, what were we thinking? Well, I remember my band when I was like 16, against all odds, I just played in this punk band. I mean, I sent my demo to fucking Fat Records. Why wouldn't I? Exactly. Did you ever hear back from them?

Fuck them. No, I never got past them in the mailroom. Yeah, didn't get past the mailroom boys. Like, fuck this shit. Yeah, I mean, they had to have gotten a ton. Because I remember I interned at Hopeless Records in like 97 or 98. And they would just get boxes of demos. Oh, yeah. We're not there. But we get a decent amount of... And I'll send him the good stuff. I kind of filter it out. I'm like, eh, I mean, this is not that good.

But yeah, I mean, in the beginning, we were putting out records and we were just losing money, money, money. But at that time, to me, it was like, dude, I'm doing this for a hobby. And then Aaron's on the side going, dude, we need to be smart. And I'm just like, I'm going to go pick up this band and money, whatever. Burn wants to put out everybody. No, not anymore. But a hobby, you shouldn't lose your ass either. Yeah. Right. And we learned getting into this thinking they're going to make money.

I mean, if anybody's thinking we're making money out there, just know we're in a bit of debt. Yeah. Oh yeah. We loved it. No, but you should, you should strive to break even. Break even, make money to put out other records. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, I know I'm not going to retire and quit my job to run a record label. Yeah. You know, so, but do you have a talk with, let's say you, you get a release from a band and you think it sounds pretty good. Yeah. What's the next step? Do you talk to them?

How active do you plan to be? Are you going to tour? Touring is a big deal. We definitely have a lesson to learn. Bert has a lot more things that he discusses with them. Because obviously, if we're going to put out a record and you're just a band that's not going to tour, Hey, we might love your music, but it doesn't... Yeah, if you're up front being like, oh, we have 400 records sitting on our shelf.

Like, we want people to hear it, but the only way they're going to hear it is if you guys get out there and... Yeah, well, you have to believe in yourself, right? Exactly. They need to believe in themselves and they need to, like, take it out there.

Yeah. I remember when we got an indecision... I showed Mandel like I had the tattoo you know it's like it's tattooed on my back dude we're not breaking up you know what I mean it's like I don't know if that fucking mattered or not but it's like like I'm we're gonna go for this and basically you know I told him I saved up enough money right now that if you don't want to put out the record that's totally cool we're gonna put it out ourselves but if you put out the record I have enough money saved

up right now to buy a van and we're gonna go on tour yeah so I mean that's the right way to do it I think No, you have to tour. Yeah. I mean, I get people have jobs and, you know, some of the bands have, you know, that are on our label have a couple members might have a kid or something like that. But I'm not looking for touring six months out of the year. If you can do a week on the West Coast, you know, a band dying for it on our label that's been with us for a while.

They just flew out to the East Coast for eight shows. Yeah. That's all I'm looking for. Yeah. But we do have bands on our label low end.

And it's like, Yeah, I mean, if you're not playing out of your own state every once in a while, we can't invest in that now. Because now we've invested so much into this label, and it still is a hobby, but now it's a business. Now it's a second job for us. We have to manage money and pick bands and make sure that, hey, can this band potentially... You know, I look at them and go, you know, I think they can sell 300 records. You know what I mean? So it's tough.

Man, there's no formula for picking a good band. It's tough. Yeah. And I'm still feeling my way through all that. Yeah. I'm a rookie running a record. Yeah, we're definitely learning as we go. What's the current turnaround time at pressing plants? Man, the ones I go through is I get a test press. I get a test press within 10 to 14 days. And then production after that is about a month to a month and a half. Wow. So two and a half months. That's nice. Yeah. That's good.

I don't go directly through a pressing plant though. Like some labels do. I have a broker that goes through a big pressing plant in the Czech Republic. But right now I go through a broker called A to Z and turnaround time for an LP is like two months. That's great. It's insane. Yeah. Flexi's. like two to three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So have you done that yet?

I'm getting ready to put out some, uh, flexi seven inches for, um, some recent bands that we picked up that we haven't announced yet for like promotion. Well, or you'll sell them. So that's, so the deal is, you know, so for a flexi, you can do 250 flexis, you know, for 450 bucks. That's what shipping, right? So I would keep some and put on our death wish web store, uh, I give some to the band, whatever we don't sell. So the flexes are going to be like a prelude to maybe their LP.

So whatever we don't sell exactly promotional material, I can start sending these out to record stores and, you know, distributors and stuff like that. So we want to sell some, but it's also promotional marketing material and it's cheaper than just putting out a seven inch for an unproven band. Yeah, sure. Cause you didn't like a band. But they're not proven, right? Yeah. Do you have any Flexies in your collection? I don't. I have a single one. I do not.

I have a Funeral Oration Flexie that is kind of like what you said. It was like a precursor to their first LP on Hopeless. Yeah. But they're hard to store. I've got to put it in the polybag of a different 7-inch Funeral Oration. Yeah. I mean, they don't have the life expectancy as a regular 7-inch. But when you're producing a 7-inch... And you can only sell them for, you know, between, you know, max right now is $7. Okay. There's no, you don't make money on 7-inches. Yeah. You just can't.

You can't make money on a 7-inch. You want to break even. Sure. LPs, different. Yeah. Well, I think people got to come to the reality that if they want the 7-inch format to exist, it's got to get a little more expensive. Yeah. And they would be

I'm like, you know what? Instead of a seven inch, why don't you write your new songs will be a side. We're going to put your demo on the B side of an LP. Yeah. Just because you can do an LP and you have a way better margin of markup. Right. And it does come down to money. It's like, all right, I need to make my money back. And if I can make any more money, That's going to go towards the next release, right? It's about, it's like a survival thing, you know?

Yeah. Well, I fucking hate seven inches now anyway. I just don't want to get up and flip as much. You know, I want to put on a record. I prefer a one-sided 12 inch. I'm doing one of those. We're doing that with a band called Bystander. Yeah. Which has Greg Benick from Trial and guitarist from, God, who is that? Greg Benick of Trial. And juggling fame. Yeah. He actually juggled for my... He stayed with me and he actually juggled for all my kids for like an hour. It was insane.

He stayed with me in Hawaii. He's that good. Oh, dude. Oh, dude. To go for an hour and entertain. Well, not all at once, but they... So he would like juggle something and my seven-year-old would be like, here, juggle these apples. And he would juggle apples and he'd go, juggle our shoes. And he's juggling shoes and stuff like that. Yeah, but he'll like get

It was, like, right after the LP came out, and they did, like, play the intro through, like, the PA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? It was so cool. Yeah, that's who we ended up playing a lot with up north on the East Coast was Trial. Yeah. Played a few shows with them. But, yeah, so, I mean, that release, we're, like, getting back to it. We're doing a one-sided LP for Bystander. Yeah. And, you know, we're screen printing the B-side. You can do cool stuff.

You can't sell it for, like, an LP price, but you sell it for more than a 7-inch. Right. So that's where I'm leaning towards. I'm like, hey, why don't we do a one-sided? Yeah, what do you save? You save, like, buying stampers and you save mastering one side? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much just the stampers. Yeah. What's that, $400? Yeah. For two sides, it's about $350. Okay. Yeah. So you save a little. I mean, you save a little bit. Yeah. I mean, but vinyl is just expensive.

Well, I know. I buy the marked up version. I'm the purchaser. But bystander has, you know, Greg from Trial and Charles, guitar player, used to play in a band called Spirits. Cool. Yeah. And they're a really good band. They're kind of like doing, I don't want to call it old guy hardcore, but they're taking it back to just like fast, good hardcore. I don't even want to call it youth crew. It's just... Yeah, have they done a release before? Yeah, with us. We put out their 7-inch. Oh, cool.

Yeah, so we got that coming out. We got a lot of stuff coming out. I mean, it's really taking off. It's a great feeling that it's starting to feel like... God, at some point we're going to break even or we're going to have money in the bank. Well, now the bands are reaching out to us and that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you don't have to spend as much time digging for bands that are coming to you. Well, I mean, the biggest help was working with Scott Vogel.

I mean, he let us put out the Despair discography. That was a two times LP. That was a double LP. Yeah. And then I hit him up. I'm like, dude, let's do Slugfest. He's like, yeah. So Scott Vogel's kind of helped the label. I mean, it's, it's really like, he was just like straight up about, and he's like one of the nicest guys. Like, I don't want to get off subject, but he's such a cool guy. He really does give a shit about hardcore. He's the epitome of hardcore.

And him just letting an unknown label put that stuff out was key to our existence. He knows you though, right? Yeah. I mean, we're acquaintances. We're, you know, I don't. When would you have met him? when built to last was around playing like orange County shows and stuff. And then, you know, just from terror shows and stuff. Yeah. Um, but yeah, he gave us, he's like, yeah, do it. Yeah. And that's kind of what kind of helped us propel a little bit.

And then after that, it just started getting, and he'll send bands our way. Yeah. It gets a little, well, he's a good, he would be a great curator, right? Cause he's on tour all the time. Yeah. Seeing the cream of the crop, seeing all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so tell me more. What else do you want to talk about about the label, Bert, before we wrap it up? You know, we got a ton of releases coming out. We got the Bystander release, the one-sided LP. We got the Time and Pressure LP coming out.

We have a lot of releases coming out in 2020. We picked up some bands in Canada. Like newer hardcore bands. Newer type of hardcore, you know, because I'm trying to... I'm trying to... stay connected with younger kids and bands. And I like all kinds of hardcore. I'm not picky. I like anything from Youth Crew to Gnostic Front to Converge. I'm pretty easy. So I'm picking up a whole bunch of different types of hardcore bands. You know, some of them are heavier and slower.

Some of them are faster, but... I picked up some bands in Canada, believe it or not. We're trying to run Canada, be the kings of hardcore up there. All right. So we picked up a band called Stepping Stone. They're tour machines. They've been playing some of the bigger festivals and picked up another band from the East Coast side of Canada called Cold Shoulder. And we just got a lot of good shit going on. I mean, the label's starting to really pick up. So, I mean... Cool. That's about all I got.

All right. Well, tell me the writing story.

Oh. Oh. you take that one I just talked for a minute let's wrap this up with two good stories so we're in Reading and this is built to last this is built to last it's all skaters and like straight edge kids yeah and you can see that there was a group there that they're probably not into hardcore it was just older guys yeah this was a weird place so this place like had like an arm wrestling table and like yeah so there was some guys there you know with rocking cowboy hats and stuff like that and

you could tell they weren't interested in what was going on other than just to be there so I guess at some point they were causing trouble with some local kids that were like skater kids that were there to see us and stuff. And so there was some stuff going on when we were playing and it never really got out of hand.

And then I remember afterwards we were loading up and I took a load out to the van and our buddy that was on tour with us, Ben Nahum, he came out with me and I was like, hey, just... just stay out here so I didn't have to close up the van and I walked back inside and I over here this guy go like oh fuck straight edge and I was like hey Dave this guy said fuck straight edge and they've been fucking with the skater yeah and so there was a guy there that was like bigger than Dave like taller than

Dave and he was kind of sitting down and it wasn't him but Dave walks right up to that guy and he's like you got fucking beef and the guy's just like looking at him I'm like no Dave this guy and he just turns around and starts pushing the guy and then this Outro Music they left over that and all the skater kids were like coming up just like thank you yeah we were always like the defenders of the scene or something like that like even out of town out of town dude totally yeah the hero heroes of

hardcore yeah i have to hear it from ben all the time because he's like you guys left me out there yeah because ben was like i missed the melee and stuff we're like yeah That and the Shea one, and then there was the Empire Club. Well, the Empire Club is the one that led up to this. Just the pre-Shea one? That was the pre-Shea. It's been told twice now. Oh, okay, so we don't want to get into it. I was the one that got sucker punched at the Empire Club. I think Don tells that one.

But, I mean, I did call the guy a pipsqueak. I was like, what are you going to do, pipsqueak? And I see him kind of go around me, and I turn and get hit. That's an underrated cap on someone.

you know he was like jumping in the background and I was just like laughing he's like dancing around box shadow box I was like what is this guy doing yeah it's kind of old timey yeah it was these old guys are old timey he's like come on that's fine yeah so you got another one in your back pocket Bert you want to get in on a kid's story I don't think we have much more for that. There's all kinds of fighting stories. Really? What other ones? Oh man, there's one at the Empire Club.

I remember like, and I, no, not Empire Club. It was at Soma. And I don't, I think it was like a forced life show and us. And I can't remember who the main headliner was, but there was like these guys that showed up and they were obviously like just bro guys. They had no idea what hardcore is. They showed up just to go in the pit and they started causing trouble. And, and at some point, like, You know, they turned on us and I like hit one of them like in the face and they kind of like broke out.

One of them had brass knuckles and like and that was the guy that I hit because he was about to hit somebody else. And then the bouncers, that was back when they had the big old bouncer dudes. They come in, they tackle these guys, and they start taking these guys out of the club. And I'm like one of the first ones following. And like I turn around and it looked like when you kick like an ant hill where all the ants are trying to get out at the same time. There's like every single harker.

It's just you feel bad for these guys because they didn't realize that all 300 of us are all friends. They walked into a hornet's nest. They feel like they're rolling deep with like... Five, ten dudes. And they are at most spots. Yeah. You walk into a bar with five bruisers. Yeah. You can own the place. Yeah. And that was the thing that, like, they didn't talk. I mean, I don't know if recently they talked about it.

But at the end of that fight at the Shea, I remember, like, after it kind of died down the first time, I walked over to see what was going on with the, not the guy that had the Nazi tattoo on him, but the other guy. And he, like, stood up. And I went over because the amps were still buzzing. So he stood up and he's got this giant hematoma on his face. And he's just like swaying. The guy looked like, I mean, I don't know how he was still breathing. Mercy. And he's like, I'm right in his face.

And he's like. It's so fucked up, all you guys against us. And I was like, fuck you. This is what you guys do. Like, you guys go around doing this shit. And you just got your ass whooped. And I just reached over his head, and I turned off the amp. And then that's when part two started, where the guy's like, what's up? He gets choked out, and we kicked him out the back door into the mud. I know, that was crazy. It was like he rose from the dead. Yeah, just like hands.

He had this 10-foot, like, wingspan. Yeah. That was scary. My wife was like seven months pregnant, too, man. Was she there? She was there. That's why I wasn't... I got some good kicks in and took a couple of the guys' grills and stuff, but I was looking to make sure my wife was okay. Don flipped the tables over. That was all Ben's fault. People act like I was doing this just spraying aimlessly in there. I was about... You know, three feet from the guy's face.

But yeah, everybody who left, eyes were watering. No, and then Ben like slides under, like looks straight at me almost and is like punching the guy. I'm like, dude, no wonder you got friendly fire. I remember picking up my drums and it was just all over my drums and my eyes were burning. And I had no idea that mace got sprayed. And they're like, oh, that was bird. He's just spraying it. They're all big guys, dude. Like he just took a shit. He was just trying to help the commas with it.

Yeah. That was a good time, man. Yeah, Peppersville. That was clear out of the room. Inside a room that there's like 300 kids in. Yeah. I thought I had it on the squirt thing, but I think it was more of the mist. I didn't even know Bert had pepper spray on him. Well, I had it because I knew that shit was coming down the pipe at that show. Yeah. That one will always be a... It's legendary. Yeah, it's legendary. Well, and it, like, it led to the first hit of Over My Dead Body. God damn it. Again.

Well, it sucks because I remember, like, we were going to play the Misfits show, and then, like, we decided not to because... It was at Canes. We're like, eh. I was like, I'll put a baseball bat up next to the stage and be like, I'm up here if you need me. So we backed out of the Misfits show. Those Nazis had friends down there that probably weren't even racist, but they were just friends with them. You have all the PB guys. I'm just like, eh, we might want to... Let's step back from that one.

Plus, I think I was 18 and over and I didn't want to play that show because of the... I'm a fan of just playing all ages shows and stuff. Shout out PB Pub. Yeah. PB Pub. That was my spot, dude. Had a good run there. Pacific Beach. Yeah, man. Well, thanks for doing it. Anything else you guys want to touch on? You feel like you've been well represented. Don, you were pretty buff, dude. So Don clarified. He was buffer in 2000 and he was in 98. So I was off by two years.

I just thought he was in shape. Like buff is like Dave Kennedy. Like... See, I don't remember Dave Kennedy being buff. I just remember him being like... There was a time where Dave and I were constantly in competition about who could be, who could get bigger. Yeah. But he'd always complain, my muscles are long, so I can't... Well, yeah. I mean, like, how... He doesn't have a frame that would, like, lend itself to being... Tuck. Yeah, to being, like, super muscular.

Yeah. I was always skinny, so I didn't... Not anymore. That's all relative, right? That's all relative of this deal. Not anymore. All days, man. It's catching on. All days, it is. All right, guys. Thank you. Hey, thanks,