185 miles south, a hardcore punk rock podcast.
What's up, everyone? Today on the pod, Dan Sant and I are joined by Mike Cheese of Gehenna. What's up, Mike?
Hey, how's it going?
Nice to talk to you, dude. I'm excited about this one. I think that like... Okay, so I did a little bit of homework on you. So we're not going in fully blind. You're born in Detroit in 73. You moved to San Diego in 1988. And normally, we jump straight into when people get into punk and hardcore because... I don't really give a shit about most backstories. Like I want to know in the context of the music, but I think that like that would put you around age 15 when you move.
So like you're kind of a, a mentally functioning young adult. And I can't think of two cities that would be so different than Detroit and San Diego. Can you kind of like, you know, in your 14, 15 year old mind, like compare the two.
Yeah, I was, I was 14 when, when we moved to San Diego in, uh, And the culture shock was pretty drastic. Detroit is a relatively intense place to live. But moreover, Detroit sort of has, or at that time in 1988, had sort of a limited amount of access to the coasts where things were happening, right? So there was... there was a lot more likeliness that weirdos were going to stick together.
You know, if there was some fucking weird metal dude or some punk kid or some golf kid or, or skateboarders or whatever, everyone sort of seemed to talk to one another to try and find out, you know, what was going on, what was happening as far as like releases. If you went into a record store, people were kind of communicating and there was a fairly good chance that, There may be some tensions, but it was a little bit different.
I think getting to San Diego, there was the culture shock of things being so sort of segregated and segregated in a way that I did not really even fathom. San Diego being like a military industrial complex town, it was kind of full of, for the most part, conservatives, right? And so... being that it's like a conservative town and people were only really focused to me, at least it seemed people were only really focused on what was cool within their immediate vision.
Their peripherals were kind of blocked. So being like a kid that was into metal and hip hop and skateboarding and, you know, some early punk and hardcore, I felt sort of like a, uh, an outsider to say the least. Right. And, um, I think that the difference of the two worlds was really amplified by my being alone, really, and not immediately having friends. But that kind of changed pretty quickly when I met Justin Holbo. And we started skating and then started talking about music.
And then, you know, one thing led to another. he made me into an asshole.
So did you get into punk and hardcore in Detroit and bring like a nice little record collection with you to San Diego?
Yeah, yeah, I did. I brought a bunch of records and cassettes and stuff like that with me. And I also just kind of kept absorbing as much stuff as I could. Music was really, really important to me, like from a young age. When I was seven years old in Detroit, I had a paper route. You know what I mean? And I didn't make a lot. It was like 25 cents per paper Monday through Saturday and then a dollar of paper on Sunday. And it equaled out to about 115 or 120 bucks a week topping out.
But at the time, minimum wage was... like $3.30 an hour or something like that, right? So I was making double minimum wage when I was like seven years old, you know what I mean?
So immediately I had money to just drop at Harmony House Records and start buying stuff like, I mean, you know, not super amazing wild stuff, but stuff like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden and, Judas Priest and then getting into some of the punk and hardcore stuff, you know, buying like Eye for an Eye from COC and getting, you know, the Suicidal Tendencies LP and, you know, stuff that was from around. And most of that I was exposed to through like high school radio and college radio.
And there was punk shows on all these college radio stations and these high school radio stations. And I just was obsessed with them. But I was also obsessed with rap records and stuff too. So I just became obsessed with music at an early age. And it was really this thing of taping my records, putting the tape in my Walkman, and then getting on my bike at 4 in the morning to go pick up papers and deliver papers, and then listening to that Walkman, and listening to that stuff
We had an extremely similar existence on two different continents because I was completely obsessed by maiden hip hop and like a bit more mainstream punk. But when you were in Detroit and you were getting into punk, did you experience like what a hardcore scene is or did that, did that happen in San Diego?
It happened in San Diego for me. I mean, there was stuff there in Detroit, but the difference was that, like I said, it wasn't like a giant sort of scene. And especially being 12, 13, 14, as I started to get into that stuff more and more, when you're 12 years old, you're not going to go to a bar. You know what I mean? You're not going to go... Rarely are you going to get invited to a party to go see a band or anything like that at 12 years old, right? Unless there's some sort of network around.
But you'll meet kids at record stores and you meet kids at, you know, anywhere that anyone's wearing some kind of shirt that's obscure. You're like, oh my gosh, what's that? And you want to talk to them about it and talk to them about stuff and you're making tapes for folks and then you're reading... the back of Metal Forces magazine and trading tapes with people in Metal Forces. Well, at least I was. I don't know.
But it becomes this bizarre thing where, like I said, the culture shock of having this weird thing where there was maybe concerts or backyard parties to then there being actual shows and sort of a scene in San Diego was really different. And it wasn't probably until 1990 that I actually got involved with or started kind of hanging out with folks a lot in San Diego's hardcore scene. So it was probably around 89 or 90 there. So
let's jump into that era, Mike. What is your favorite stuff? So you land in San Diego in 1988. First off, excuse me, what neighborhood do you land in in San Diego?
So in San Diego, we moved to like Del Cerro kind of area or like, like kind of it's, it's near I, like I went to Patrick Henry high school. I went to try to remember the name of the junior high. I can't remember the junior high is in like San Carlos and the high school was right there. Like, Del Cerro, San Carlos kind of border. It's just
basically by San Diego State.
Yeah. College area, East County.
College area is kind of where I hung out all the time. And that off the record that was on College and El Cajon Boulevard was kind of everything to me. Like, I loved that place.
I, you know, would jump on the bus and head down there, skate to the bus stop, jump on the bus, head down there almost daily with anything I could think scrounge up and just I was voracious like buy anything I could get my hands on anything I could but yeah there was that and then there was in El Cajon there was Blue Meanie which was pretty important to me too as well that was where like I met Norm from like Psychotic Waltz and my friend Jason who passed away a couple years ago but these guys
were just complete absolute music nerds as well right and so they were they they were you know genuinely interested that some weird kid came into the store you know uh with you know like a homemade possessed t-shirt and like a you know a pair of shorts and a skateboard you know and kind of long scummy hair and an upside down cross necklace
Right. Let's dial into that. What is your favorite stuff in the world, like in 89, in this era?
Without a question, it's all the primitive death metal stuff, all the primitive thrash stuff, all the Brazilian death metal stuff. That's the stuff that was really kind of my favorite.
As far as punk and hardcore, though, it was really kind of the... the crossover stuff, things like, um, like Excel, um, COC, um, in a, in a bizarre way, like negative approach had such a huge impact on me early that like, I never lost a love for that band, but I always just kind of didn't know that it wasn't metal.
I knew it was punk, but like, John Brandon's voice, even on that NA 7-inch and on Tied Down, it just sounds like a metal or a thrash metal kind of thing to me because it's so raw and harsh, right? So those were all the things that I liked. I liked the things that had a harsher tone to them, things that were a little more raw and edgy. Obviously, as far as hip hop goes in that era, It was BDP, you know, it was Public Enemy, LL, all that fun stuff like that.
Cool G Rap, never, never, I can never say enough good stuff about Cool G Rap. And I know that seems odd, but it's...
Nothing odd about that.
It just, yeah, you know what I mean, Danny? It just sounds so, it's authentic music. And it's just so scathing and kind of aggressive, right? And I mean, you know, touching on what you said earlier about us having similar existences and backgrounds in different areas. I mean, you grew up in Manchester, right?
Just outside a place called Warrington.
Well, you know, that's and I mean, that's essentially. Right. was because it's the same colors as the lions, right? It was that, it was that, that like sky blue.
And I was like, I was talking about Manchester city, by the way, to people who aren't, aren't clued in.
Yeah. Uh, but I mean, and I mean, if they're not clued in, I, I, I feel for him, my heart breaks for him, you know, uh, it's a tragedy, but, uh, you know, it really is kind of like one of those things though, that like growing up in, in, um, kind of an environment, a working class kind of environment or a blue collar environment, I think you tend to have a greater appreciation of the things that like you're doing.
Well, you know what's interesting about what you say there, Mike, is like the other thing that is completely echoing on both sides of that and what makes working class kids dive deeper into subculture and because of the insane amount of like joblessness that was going on and unemployment and
things.
You dive into subculture, you dive into the artistic things of music because that's given you life in, in an environment that necessarily isn't showing you much else.
Yeah, absolutely. Without a question. And I believe like, it's sort of one of those things, you know, when, when you, really understand what's at stake, you go in thinking, this is the most important thing in the world because it might save me. This might be the thing that gets me out of this sort of desolate and kind of hopeless mindset that I see surrounding me. And I think, Danny, you could understand what I'm talking about culture shock-wise too.
The idea of San Diego is kind of like, Oh man, it's cool. Just go to the beach. Fuck it. You know, like everything is really laid back. And, and, and as far as like going out to, to just invest yourself into every single solitary way to make a dollar, you can, I think people are sort of conservative and they're like, well, just get a job, one job. Don't worry about it. go to the beach, relax. It's cool. No big deal. Right. I
don't, I feel like moving to San Diego, there were, um, it is a thing where, yes, it is a much more laid back lifestyle, but I'm sure for you being a skater kid coming out of Detroit, whoa, I can skate 365 days a year now.
Yeah. No, I mean that, that, that was definitely, um, That was great. But I think at that point, it kind of more became specifically a mode of transportation and a genuine way for me to utilize the rapid transit system at a better rate and get around to where I needed to go. And it also kind of helped me... introduce myself to a lot of folks because, you know, you could go to skate spots and hang out and, and bump into folks and talk to them about, you know, Oh shit.
Um, have you heard this CMW tape or, you know, Oh, this is, you know, you know what I mean? So you're talking about whatever kind of music.
Well, this is probably where you learn more about punk and hardcore, especially what's local there. And I'm probably where you meet up. with people that then introduce you to the scene, right?
Yeah, absolutely. It's like, like I said, I think, I think it was there and it was at off the record on El Cajon Boulevard where I bumped into, it was like Josh and Greg and all those folks that were in statement and Oscar and, and they were dropping off some flyers and, for a statement show that was at Bob's house in Chula Vista. And I was like, oh, this is great. And I made my way down there. The show didn't happen. Greg was quitting statement and moving to Seattle.
Greg, you know, became Greg Anderson. I guess he was Greg Anderson there and didn't really become him. Cause I guess it was him, but, uh, I think, you know, uh, but that's the Greg I'm talking about. The Josh I was talking about was Josh Mosh from, uh, from forced down and all that fun stuff. But they were in this band called statement. They were dropping off flyers. I was really stoked cause I just bought the demo at off the record.
Um, just like, I guess a week or two before or something, maybe two weeks before. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is incredible. I'm so excited to go see these guys. And I went down there and they didn't play. And that was when I bumped into Rob for the first time. And I talked to him and I'm sure he was like, oh, cool. Get the fuck away from me, weirdo. But it was then, you know, finding out about like amenity shows that were going on and getting flyers for amenity shows.
And then going to amenity shows at, there was a rock against racism show at San Diego State University. And it was like, this is great. I can just take, you know, the number 11 and I'm going to be there in, you know, 18 minutes or something. Right. And so went to that show. It was nuts. It was fun. I met a bunch of folks. Um, and then said, Hey, do you guys want to go skate or, you know, steal food from a grocery store or something, you know?
And again, they looked at me like I was a fucking lunatic, but I sort of like made those connections there and started talking with folks. Um, you know, and, and through skating though, definitely that's how it was introduced to more folks within punk and hardcore.
Mike, jump into that show a little bit, just because that's one of your earlier hardcore shows that you go to. What's the vibe like? How do you feel? How does it make you feel, et cetera?
Gosh, what's the vibe like? So it's in this kind of, I guess, house at San Diego State University. it's not really a house. It's like, it's like a house that's, that, that has, um, sort of like a, some like, I don't know, like, uh, like a food, not bombs thing going on or something like that. You know what I mean? It's like, like one of those kinds of places that's like a bunch of hippie folks and a bunch of weird punk kids. And, you know, everybody's, you know, really upset about everything.
Um,
for no apparent reason. And then as far as bands that played, I don't really recall any of the other bands that played besides Amenity. I'm really, I'm trying to remember. I mean, it's kind of weird. That doesn't
matter. I mean, what matters is you remember Amenity, right? So how did they feel when they played and how did you connect with them?
It was fucking... insane. I was just blown away. I was skating probably seven hours earlier, right? And I was shooting one of my friends that was trying to, you know, put together his tape, right? And so I was filming that, right?
With this gigantic old video camera that was like laying around at some point that i decided i was going to use um and so while i was out skating with this thing that was like 60 pounds like it has a separate battery pack and then it's like the camera and all this stuff and i had it like kind of packed into this hiking backpack sort of, right? Just because I couldn't actually carry it and skate safely. But we were filming a bunch of stuff.
And then I went to that show and I was filming because I really wanted to like film the amenity set. And I have a copy of the set somewhere around here. But it was like, it was just nuts. I was just completely blown away. Just, completely blown away by how connected the band was to the crowd, right? Like they were genuinely like the crowd was part of the band and they were singing along every word and going all nuts. And like the whole room was just moving.
Like it looks kind of like the cameras bouncing around on my shoulder, but it's genuinely because the walls were vibrating and the whole room was moving and it was like the floor felt like it was flexing, like at least, you know, a full inch up and down the whole time because the whole place was just going nuts. And, um, and it was, it was just, it was massive. It was huge. It was so big to me. I went home that night and I remember rewinding the tape as soon as I got to my house and watching it.
start to finish and thinking to myself, like, what was I doing carrying this fucking camera when I could have been fucking going ape shit, you know?
Yeah. Do you have any other moments like in these next couple of years that are like formative to you before you decide to like start your own band and like become like a participant in like making music?
Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, I think part of it, you know, was that like, I was like, I was always just obsessed with music. And I thought Steve Harris was the greatest bass player to ever live. And I was right. It was really weird. So I got a bass at probably, I'm going to say I was maybe 15 when I took a bunch of money that I had saved. And I bought a bass guitar. And I kind of tried to sort of play music, was really interested in trying to form a band.
But the band that I really wanted to form in my mind was this band that was like Creator or Slayer or Possessed or stuff like that. I saw Creator in Tijuana at Iguana's. I got a chance to see Voivod there. I saw a bunch of, bunch of great like metal shows there. And it was really funny. Cause like, you know, it was, like I said, 15 years old with a fake ID and just going to see like all these fucking bizarre shows.
And it was really seeing like those metal bands and punk bands sort of finish a set and like break down stuff put it away and then immediately go over to their merch table and start selling shirts and just talking to everybody like there was no um like there was no actual separation between the crowd and the band like the the band needed the crowd the crowd needed the band and genuinely a lot of times you could tell that the band hated the kids in the crowd um but it was really important to, to
feed off that energy and sort of, and sort of have that sort of, um, that ability to, to kind of express themselves and their maybe love or hatred of the crowd, you know what I mean? And, and, and it really is kind of one of those things like seeing, um, you know, uh, seeing, seeing like DRI and TJ and it just being like, one of the most violent fucked-up shows I've ever seen, seeing Agnostic Front and Beowulf play in Tijuana, and it was just like a bloodbath.
And just thinking to myself, like, oh, this is fun, you know? And, you know, now if I were to see something like that going on, I would definitely be pretty nervous for the outcome of what was going to happen to some of the folks. But I think, you know, some of the stuff like, like seeing bands in VFW halls or in, you know, like the, the Alano club on, on grape street or in TJ, I was able to actually see stuff that, that, I didn't see really so much in the San Diego hardcore scene.
And it was like, and I'm saying that because there was sort of almost two scenes. There was a scene that was very conscious of what was going on in the world and had a very political slant to it. And then there was a scene of bands that were just fucked up, out of control. And and everything was really violent still in a, in a weird way because there was, you know, still a lot of like Nazi skins showing up at shows and stuff like that.
Probably not as violent as Detroit when I think about it, but I think it was echoed so much because it was such a vast chasm between those two worlds, right? Like the San Diego straight edge and punk and hardcore scene was, was so different from the metal and thrash and crossover scene in the fact that it was like they sort of seemed to be around one another, but they were still so separate, right? I don't know if that makes any sense. No, for
sure. And the Gehenna demo is so fascinating to me because it doesn't sound like it could be someone's first band. It's a really wild mashup of... maybe like that early nineties, like straight edge metal core with like straight up, like the, I don't know what you want to call the first wave of black metal, but like the dark thrones, the bersams, like that early nineties stuff. And it's like,
yeah, I mean,
like that stuff is really recent still at the time. Like it's not like it's, it's sunk into people,
but that's, you know, like Bathory and possessed and Sodom and destruction and creator sarcophago, all that stuff. Sex Trash, those were all bands that I was obsessed with growing up. I genuinely thought that I was going to have a fucking death metal band or something like that for as long as I could have remembered.
And then having a hardcore band seemed like it kind of made sense because those were the folks that were willing to tolerate my poor musicianship and my inability to sort of learn how to play an instrument or push myself to be more creative than, you know, yelling to where I sound like I'm coughing or something, you know. I mean, I don't know if it really translates well, but I think it – that demo sort of has the hindsight of, you know, Steve being able to have recorded unbroken stuff.
He had like sort of an understanding of multi-track recording and he also had like some ideas for things that he liked. And then I think, you know, when I was sort of kind of, maybe sharing some stuff music-wise with Steve, because we went to high school together and stuff, and I was sharing stuff with Justin and Rich, and we were all like really sort of collaborative and bringing in all the things that we all sort of kind of enjoyed. Stephen Halbo pretty much wrote all the music there.
I wrote all the lyrics. I shot down some of the music that they wanted to add that had more melody. Cause you know, melody is, I hate it. It's
funny, Mike, because I've been, I'm really excited that you're on the pod because you're like the most real person that, Tons of unreal stuff has happened to, but this demo, like it, the Gehenna demo, no joke, influence the band that I did Palpatine, like big time, you know, I
love you guys, man.
Yeah. But, but the, um, the thing about the Gehenna demo, like you, it's interesting. You're saying Justin's bringing in stuff, Steve's bringing in stuff. And then you're, you know, basically telling them to filter because it's, The way I've always thought about you is that you're always on the precipice of great things before they become widely known. For example, the black metal stuff. For example, being steeped in the knowledge of all the Clevo hardcore stuff.
Also, I mean, you knew about Wu-Tang Clan before. literally right as Protect Your Neck came out like you knew about them like the minute that dropped and you know Don and I are very grateful because I
gotta tell you there's like the thing that made me so obsessed with music was like what you were just talking about it was like it was like, Oh, is that new? Have I heard it yet? Is that going to change my life? Great. I'm going to go for it. And like, and I don't think I was afraid to express like how much I loved something. Right.
And I think that that kind of, I believe that there's always been a lot of people always have like these, these walls that they put up because they're afraid to be ridiculed or afraid to sort of, commit to things. Right there. And I, and I think that, that because like, I happen to be, you know, I mean, I'm not afraid of being made fun of. I don't, I don't give a fuck. Like I, I mean, I know that anyone that makes fun of me genuinely more than likely, I'm not going to encounter them ever again.
Right. Like, like really like, Or I will encounter them again and I'll understand that it was all in good fun and it doesn't really matter, right? In the bigger scheme of things. But for the most part, right? Like there's like for being on the precipice of hip hop stuff, like I just remember obsessively buying like every single that came out that I could and reading just volumes of like, rap pages and The Source and Bomb Hip Hop Magazine and 4080.
And it's bizarre because when I moved to the Bay Area, the thing that kind of connected me to folks was I was working and I started rapping with this guy that was DJing at the bar. And he's like, oh shit, you know my friend from Reno.
And it was like, yeah, and this is a guy that in, you know, 1992 or 93, like we were, you know, joking about, you know, like the hip hop stuff that other people were afraid to listen to because it was just like so raw and shitty and you couldn't wear like a button up shirt with polka dots on it and dance around to it. you know, like, like it's, does that make any sense? I don't know. It's like, it wasn't, it wasn't R and B. It wasn't melodic. It wasn't. No, of course.
The reason I'm, I'm, I'm like talking about just your wide knowledge of things and also being like up on them first is because of what the Gehenna demo is, is that, you know, it, obviously San Diego was worshiping, you know, when you look at Unbroken and you look at a few other things, San Diego was definitely influenced by Cleveland, right? So does Cleveland influence on the Gehenna demo? It's just in the scene at the time, in Steve, in Justin, et cetera.
But then there is the black metal stuff, which a lot of people are finding black metal after finding Gehenna. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I mean, the Cleveland stuff, I'll disagree a little bit there. I think the Cleveland stuff was genuinely hated by everyone in San Diego at first. Like if you read JFS, like those early issues of JFS, I don't know if you ever saw those zines, or like Get It Straight or any of the zines that any of those cats put out. Like all those Chula Vista dudes just loathed and hated that Integrity 7-inch when it came out. They just despised it.
Now they enjoyed face value for some reason, probably because face value was more acceptable along the lines of traditional hardcore, right? But integrity was sort of that seven inch specifically was definitely not valued the way it was until, I mean, I was obsessed with that shit though, right? Like I, I like, I like, printed like integrity shirts in my graphic arts class and stuff.
And, and I was obsessed to a point that, that, you know, I thought that that seven inch was the best thing ever because it kind of had that, you know, death metal and thrash metal meets hardcore. Right. So it
was
just cruel and vicious sounding, you know what I mean? And I think part of the reason why, it sounded so cruel and vicious to me was because it had like a sort of Cro-Mags meets maybe possessed kind of tone to it, right? And possessed maybe strictly in the vocal delivery, Cro-Mags specifically on the music writing and stuff. And for... that, that Clevo stuff, I definitely don't think like it was widely accepted for a while.
And it really took like, it took, I think those who fear tomorrow to come out for the San Diego folks to kind of embrace integrity in, in my opinion, you know, and, and
maybe see them.
Right. Well, I mean, and, and nobody actually saw integrity until, until, Those Who Fear Tomorrow had been out for quite a while. And the first time they played on the West Coast, they played in – God, they played with Downer, and I can't remember who else. But it was in L.A. We drove up for that, and then I flew up to Sacramento to see them like two days later or whatever. And Rhodes, who played in Gehenna – And Dean had booked the Reno show for them on that tour.
Rhodes rode out to see them in like Milwaukee or somewhere like that, rode Greyhound out to see them. And, you know, Rhodes and I had been writing letters back and forth and trading tapes, you know, like, oh, hey, check out this Ripping Corpse demo. And, you know, he'd be like, oh, you should hear this, you know, fucking seven inch from this band called last option out here in Phoenix, um, before he got arrested in Phoenix and then had to move back to Reno or whatever.
But, you know, it's, it's, um, I think, I really think it was like mostly metalhead weirdos that really embraced that stuff first. Um, but I, I think that, that, that said that, that I believe that the Gehenna demo along with all the Gehenna stuff, um, kind of tends to be that stuff that's like, oh, what do you like? Well, it's all right here. It's like really huge sort of drums that sound almost like they're sort of like a live hip hop drum kind of samples, right?
Like in a way they kind of sound like that to me. They sound like live, almost jazz drums or something like that. And the guitars are, I think should always be detuned and have like a really sort of horrific amount of feedback around them. I just, I don't know. I would dare to say though that it was all of us kind of delivering our own take on stuff and then the editing being all of us kind of arguing and probably whoever had the most obnoxious opinion uh, we went with it, you know?
Yeah. I'm glad you didn't pull like the lo-fi drums out of like the nineties black metal. Cause that's, that's kind of rough. But one thing I wanted,
one thing I wanted to talk about. If we didn't have Jeff Forrest, it would have sounded like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Double time really makes drums sound fucking great, man. And they, they just remind me of hip hop drums,
you know,
like for, for sure.
One thing
I wanted to touch on.
Sorry. Shit. God.
I was going to say shout out to Jeff Forrest's wig.
One thing I just wanted to touch on with the demo is just kind of like the timelessness of it. Because if you think about like Gehenna, you know, demo 94, and then you do like that comp LP that comes out in 98. And a lot of bands, like they run away from the early stuff. You know, they think it doesn't matter how great it is. It's like they kind of bury it because they think whatever they did next is better or the best. And when you put out this comp LP, you put the demo tracks first.
I love that you're not hiding from it. You're still like, this stuff's great. This is our band. We're not trying to get past it. And I think it really adds to it like a timelessness of it.
Yeah, so I think that when you assemble things, unless they're a mixtape, When you assemble things, they should be in chronological order, right? And I think like the downfall of a lot of bands is that they ignore the sort of, in my opinion, proper way to document things, right? Like I don't like books that are out of sequence. I don't like stories that are out of sequence so much. I really don't enjoy... movies that are out of sequence very much.
And I think that although it can be fun to sort of shuffle things, for lack of a better word, that's the only word that comes to mind as we're kind of in an age where everything is shuffled anyways, because no one listens to a record from start to finish anymore. I think it was really important at the time to document things in that sort of chronological order. And I also think, too, that it actually shows growth and progress of a band.
I think if a band is growing and progressing and doing stuff that they're more excited about, why not save the best for last?
That's fair. Before we jump to that, the Spotify skip everything culture. Make it through the record. Mike, can you give your general thoughts of hardcore in the mid-90s and what bands stood out to you? Kind of an overview.
Danny mentioned my favorite hardcore band, Wu-Tang Clan. I was really big into Mobb Deep, loved Black Moon. Let me think about hardcore bands from the 90s that really stood out for me. And it's going to be Born Against, Rorschach, obviously Unbroken had a connection with them as friends. Other bands that really kind of rung my bell in the 90s would probably be like, I mean, Morbid Angel.
I'm really like, I'm kind of at a loss because there was so much hardcore that was coming out and there's so much that I was absorbing and buying and, you know, really obsessing over. It was the rare stuff like the Rorschach records or the Econochrist records that seemed to strike me as something that I sort of kind of aligned myself with or really understood. And I think it was because those records sort of have a harsher sound to them and they weren't getting sort of cleaned up.
The other stuff is like, I mean, Citizen's Arrest, just, I was blown away by light in the darkness. Um, I like Colossus is one of my favorite LPs of all time. Um, I think, I think Daryl has one of the raddest voices and, you know, yeah, it's such a great guitar player and, and, you know, uh, they, they, they really made some brilliant records, but I think there was stuff, you know, like the, like the doom records were great.
Um, It's hard really for me to pinpoint great hardcore from the 90s because I don't believe there was much of any.
I think that's just interesting you pinpointing some stuff. I think it gives like a lot of insight. How about like the overall like seriousness of it? And I don't know, like some of the banality of it.
Yeah, you know, I mean, there's – I mean, I think maybe even that's some of the stuff that helped me to or maybe – drew me towards some of those other bands. Um, you know, bands like, like gasp or spaz or even like no comment, all those bands had this, um, sort of no less was like that too. They had these, these, um, sort of kind of less, um, less finality with what they were saying.
While there was conviction and it was serious and it really meant something and it genuinely meant something to the band that was creating it, there was also a way to laugh about something that was maybe not related directly, right? You know what I mean?
And I think kind of like that really overly serious inability to be flexible kind of – it caused this sort of strange culture where people were shutting each other out and forcing each other to not listen to one another or listen to what was – being said by someone who was not sort of within the scene. If you weren't like a top dog, if you weren't like somebody that everyone loved, then it was like, fuck you, shut up, your opinion doesn't count.
And you saw it with women that were trying to express their viewpoints or with homosexuals that were trying to express their viewpoints or people of color that were trying to express their viewpoints in punk and hardcore at the time were sort of clowned and dismissed. And I think that there was maybe a little bit less of that as hardcore moved away from the sort of suburban straight edge kind of thing and moved out into the punk and weirdo noisy kind of realms. Does that, I don't know.
Maybe that sounds like I'm being judgmental as well.
No, no, no, no, no. I want to talk. I just want to wrap up Gehenna, which is weird because we're just starting, but I want to know how you feel about the, like the evolution of the band. There's, I guess it's a multi-tiered question. The evolution of the band, as well as your outlook on doing like EP versus LP. And then also why everything is so sporadic.
So I think Gehenna evolved in a, in a very natural way for me. It kind of was finding the right folks to continue to make music with long term, right? And it was about finding folks that understood that the editing process is probably the most important part of the publishing process, right? You can't really just kind of put out everything that comes to mind.
If you put out every single thing that you're thinking of all the time, if you're constantly broadcasting every note of music, it loses authenticity. It loses that bit of care that I think happens when you invest your time wisely into it.
So that was kind of one of the things that I really enjoyed about meeting, you know, Mickey and and meeting dean right like these these two weirdos were equally as batshit crazy as i was but they also had this um this sort of obsessive dedication to things having to be right to them right or right to us the right sound for us the right feel for us so so as the band progressed and we wrote and released stuff there was stuff that we would write and record and sit and listen to and after a week
we'd call and talk to each other and it was like no not yet and then a month would pass and it was like no not yet and then sometimes it'd be three four five months and we'd be like man let's just go ahead and change that that's going to be a different project right so it became something else. And at one point, the frustrations of not having something to commit to all the way through were alleviated by all of us being able to just go ahead and move kind of out and record our own bands, right?
And we all kind of played in each other's bands, but we all did all the things that we wanted to do and still do all the things that we kind of want to do to make music we hadn't heard, right? So like the Saint Graal record, right? Saint Graal had an LP out technically before Gehenna did, right? Because our, you know, I don't know. We just didn't have an LP out before Saint Graal did. But, you know, Saint Graal was Rhodes' kind of vision of black metal. Right.
Um, and then Dean, you know, did Witch Lord. We did MFTS. We did, um, Grave Hill. Um, we did, uh, I'm trying, there was Guria. There's, uh, Bad Larry's. There's, there's, I, I could, I, I'm kind of having trouble wrapping it up right now, but there's, there's, so many different bands that we did that were like, okay, that is a Gehenna riff. That's maybe not a Gehenna riff. That is something that's worked for us. That is a lyric that could work here. That isn't a lyric that could work here.
And, you know, that editing process led us to becoming more comfortable making music for each other and like sending each other tapes of stuff and really just being completely obsessed with that kind of thing. And it happened that way for a long time. And Discrete Doll Band worked out for a long time for Rhodes and Dean. And then I think all of us living in different areas too, it made more sense for us to kind of take these breaks and these pauses so we could record the music we wanted to hear.
But it also kind of comes back down to us contributing equally make something that that we feel is an authentic representation of of you know what we are
yeah and i think i think you going on with like you know saying that you found dean and you found mike rhodes like that these like you know people from another scene which you kind of sort of move there for a bit, right? But it's more like you found these musical brethren and you were able to do a ton of different projects with.
But the thing is, like, it's touching on, you know, what you just listed as a bunch of your favorite bands and records from the 90s because you're all outliers, almost like disgusted by... what would be the typical big shows and the big things. And you, you want to get in the dirt and the blood and the guts of like the stuff that's on the very fringe of what this is, but it's still hardcore because it's still community. You're still playing at hardcore shows and stuff like that, you know?
Sure. Yeah. I mean, and definitely it really is like kind of, you know, there, there seem to be folks that, that in, in punk and hardcore that, that, that completely, um, understood that right and and they were not really kind of in one sort of small um cross-section of hardcore but people that were kind of sporadically living in different areas and living these same weird fucked up lives
well that's why that's why like earlier i said like i'm really excited to have you on the pod because I know you to be a very real person that tons of unreal, ridiculous, amazing stuff has happened to. And then some even more unreal, ridiculous stories about art. And I think we should dive into a little bit of that too, because that's always so fun. So how did you become known as Mike Cheese?
Get it straight, issue number one. was published by Dan Deegan and some guys. And they were talking about their genuine love for veganism and all that fun stuff. And I was like, dude, what the fuck? In my 16-year-old brain, writing these guys a letter to tell them that they're fucking idiots seemed like a great idea. Um, and it was, uh, but I signed the shit, Mike cheeseburger, uh, and, uh, like kind of, you know, clowning these dudes.
Um, and then I met Dan Deegan at a show, uh, an amenity show at Bob's house in Chula Vista. And we were shooting the bull and, and he was, you know, um, he was, he was like, he was like, Hey man, um, you know that was all like kind of a joke, right? And I was like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, oh, all that stuff was kind of a joke. Like, I'm not that vegetarian. And I was like, oh, great. So now I understand sarcasm actually is quite important.
So what are you listening to right now? And then that was when Dan Deegan said, well, I just recorded backups on this record. for this band called Infest and blah, blah, blah. I went, oh, better go find some Infest records. And it took a minute, and I found the second Infest 7-inch, the one with Fetch the Pliers and N3s and all that stuff, the Mankind 7-inch, I guess, is what it's known as. But that record kind of really shaped a lot of what was going on in my head as well.
That record didn't have anything to do with me being known as Mike Cheese, but it kind of does because it's me meeting Dan Deegan, who then found out that I was vegetarian. It was like, why did you call yourself Mike Cheeseburger? Because it made you mad, right?
Yeah, well, that's a fun fact, dude. And here's another fun fact. I heard that there was almost never a second Orange 9mm LP ever. Because Chaka did a stage dive at Soma. True or false?
I don't... I mean... I think Burn is fucking terrible. Orange 9mm, there was a... They played with, I guess, Quicksand and... Sick of it all. Sick of it all, yeah, that's right. And yeah, Chaka landed... on my girlfriend at the time's head, and I think my head. And I was going to square up with him for a second. And I mean, honestly, like, dude, he probably would have smoked me. I
don't know. It would have been a...
He probably would have smoked me. And I'm saying that just because, like, I really... I have a pretty sneaking suspicion that... that the reason those burn records are so bad is because that guy's pretty tough,
right? You're talking to Zach who thinks that the burn 7-inch is the ultimate 7-inch of hardcore.
You realize I've listened to this podcast before, right,
Dan? Yeah. I'm not hiding from it. The apex of hardcore burn the first 7-inch.
I'm just baiting you in, man. I'm just baiting
you in, Zach. Hey, but I'm not controlled by Mike Cheeseburger. What the
fuck? Exactly, right? I was at this show, and I saw Mike grabbing Chaka's tighty-whities that were sticking out of the... Yeah, I
grabbed his belt, and I jerked it. It was his belt, actually, right?
Yeah, but the way you grabbed it, you made his undies go really stretched as you were pulling him back to start punching him.
Yeah, I yanked him down towards the ground and stuff, and I was kind of expressing my... Displeasure. Yeah. And, and, and I was kind of explaining it. And I think at that point I may have been like, maybe shortly after that I was thrown out.
Yeah. And which was probably pretty lucky because I think the entire alleyway crew started looking for you.
Yeah, no, no, no. It was really funny too. That's right. Okay. So I was thrown out, right? Like, but I believe that was the time that, that, I was thrown out of the side door from Soma and my head and feet were sort of, I guess, perpendicular to the doorway. So the back of my head totally hit the door jam as I was being thrown out. And I was like kind of laying there outside for a quick second. I was like, oh, fuck. I'm going to go back in there and scrap with these guys.
And I kind of realized like I was not like thrown out. out like, like outside, but I was thrown into like a, like a side room or something. And I was there and I was just like, wait a second, like, how, how do I get back in from this? And genuinely, they just fucking left me sitting in there for, I don't know, probably 35, 40 minutes before someone comes in and goes, okay, you got to go. I was like, What? Is this like Soma's jail? Yeah, Soma's
jail. How crazy is that? Like all the baseball stadiums have them. You know, if you get in trouble, you take them to Dodger Stadium jail.
I've actually, yeah, I've heard some stories about that. Thinking about it now and knowing what I know now, the way it was shelved out and the shelves were empty, that's where like the PA monitors went and like that's where all the equipment rolled into. at the end of every night or whatever right it had to be it was like just to the left of the stage
yeah
right and it wasn't there was no bands in there there wasn't any band equipment in there it was genuinely an empty room with kind of heavy duty shelves on the wall and you know i guarantee that that's where they rolled like pa speakers and um you know all that kind of AV equipment. Or maybe Len partied back there.
Well, also, speaking around this time period, the Monster Crew jumps Eddie Castro at an Earth Crisis show at Soul Kitchen. Or they jump a lot of San Diego, but they focus on Eddie because he's a sellout. And they beat Eddie up And they like hockey jersey him and like do all that. So then you declare a one man war on the monster crew that takes place over numerous years.
So it was specifically like Eddie is, you know, I'm always going to love that dude. That, that guy's one of my, one of my fucking favorite people, you know? But, and Eddie and I were really tight in high school. We, we just, you know, We shared a mutual enjoyment of petty theft and just tomfoolery, I guess, general tomfoolery. But Eddie and I kind of had this thing where me and Eddie and Curtis always really looked out for one another.
We were always really tight with one another, and nothing really kind of affected us. any of that. But, uh, yeah, the, the, the, the, the comedy of that whole thing was that these dudes were so fucking wild and they were, they were buck as fuck and they were totally happy to rat pack Eddie, but like they were scared as shit to just go head up with anybody anywhere. And, um, and I was living in the city of orange at the time.
So I was around the, uh, monster crew clowns as they would show up places and I would just be like, oh, it's on site. I'm going to whip your ass, dude. What's up? And they were always like, wait, what? You can't do that. I don't have my friends here. And I'd be like, oh, totally. Watch. I'm going to do it. No hard feelings. You got an ass whipping coming. That's it. And it happened. There was some Some not so fun things that happened. There was like the one at Coos was probably the nastiest one.
Yeah, because I was in the background inhaling that mace that they were macing you with.
Right. I think you and Rich came up, right? Was that right?
I may have been there with a couple of the Swindle dudes because we had friends who lived in South Orange County and we would go to Coos almost every time we went and visited them.
Yeah. And so, cause I know Rich was there too. And Rich was pretty, he was pretty disappointed altogether. Like he was like, he was like, man, my hair's going to smell tomorrow, you know? And, and I, and I just thought that was really funny. Like that he was like, my hair's going to smell tomorrow. And I was standing in the front of Coos, like hosing down my face and like washing the blood off my fists. And, and, and I, and everybody was like, yo, dude, you might want to leave.
I think you took a chunk of that dude's face out with a punch. Something happened. And I was like, ah, no, I think he just bit his lip or something. It couldn't be that bad. And they're like, no man, you, you might want to leave. And I, I don't
know. To, to, And it wasn't just one. You took two dudes down.
Oh, yeah. I smoked a few of them. But the one that I guess was, like, that they had to, like, carry out or something, the one that was just gushing blood everywhere, that, like, you broke a knuckle and shit. I was so mad when one of my knuckles was broken. Like, I was genuinely, like, twice as angry that his face broke one of my knuckles. Like, I was like, you fucking son of a bitch. My hand is broken. Now I'm really fucking you up. And I think that's when things went really wrong.
I think that's when he got hurt pretty bad. But I got to say...
Wasn't there another time where you were sat outside the showcase by yourself and they all rolled out and... And you said, looking for me, boys? You said something like, looking for me, boys? These are some
of the things that... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I was definitely out back behind the showcase fucking... Because, you know, you see the band you want to see and then it just kind of makes sense to, like, vanish or whatever. And, like, these dudes kind of, like, came around to go to their car and I was, like, sitting on the trunk of their car like, hey, what's up? Hi, I'm here. When's my funeral?
And I think that was the one that the common line that I said to them as I'd see them random places was, hey, when is it? When's my funeral? I thought I was dead. When's my funeral? And they would kind of stammer. And then, you know, I would either... laugh it off and make them feel really bad and make them say, I'm sorry in front of whoever they were with, or I would, you know, generally attack them as well too. But yeah, it was, it was all in, all in good fun, I guess. Right. Mike, there was
a, there was a American pro wrestler. His name was George gray. And I was wondering which of his characters you related with more. Was it Akeem or was it the one man gang?
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
God, that's crazy. I'm not a huge wrestling dude, but when you said one-man gang and Akeem, I kind of, whew, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think if I were to identify with a wrestler, it would probably be neither of those guys, but probably maybe more like maybe more George the Animal Steel. I need
to see you take your shirt off.
No, well, I mean, it sounds really weird, but like he was like when he wasn't on stage or whatever, he was like a really weird kind of regular ass dude. I'm sure. And people would see him places and he was like, oh, hello, nice to meet you. Very boring and genuinely probably a letdown to everybody that was like, oh, this guy's a lunatic. And I think that I identify with that.
I think one of the reasons we covered Chain of Strength letdown so early on was because I was so used to letting people down and I'm so totally cool with that. I'm so comfortable being the guy that's like, painfully normal. Um, but maybe not, you know,
that's, that's the thing. It depends what glint is in your eye at the time, but I bet you lots of people meet you having heard, this is just a, you know, just a couple of the stories that, you know, that go on about you. There's like, we could quote like a hundred, you know, well, let's ask one more.
Before you wrap, we should say there's one. And I want to shout out to, uh, ray harkin who does 100 words or less he interviewed yeah like 2013 and he deserves all the credit in the world for being super super early hardcore podcaster one of my influences for sure yeah and uh it was hilarious because you were on that one mike and he's like i gotta ask you the story about you stabbing someone with a frozen hot dog
oh you're like oh no
i have to dispel this rumor i i didn't stab someone with a frozen hot dog i just KO'd someone with a bag of frozen hot dogs.
Yeah, it was a pack of hot dogs that was... Okay, so in a really... It's just going to sound so sad and fucking pathetic. But, you know, if you buy hot dogs in bulk or you get hot dogs in bulk, you know, you probably pop them into your freezer so that they last longer, even past the expiration date. And, you know... Then obviously, you're going to say to somebody, hey, you need a pack of hot dogs. I got you. I'll bring you some hot dogs. Don't worry about it.
But yeah, a pack of hot dogs that's frozen solid from being in a freezer in a plastic bag, like a plastic shopping bag or whatever, essentially works quite a bit like a blackjack. And I would never stab anyone with a hot dog. That's just horrible. It's a horrific thing. I feel like that's despicable. And so anyone that says that I stabbed someone with a frozen hot dog, you're wrong. I'm not that low.
All right, Dan, you do the final one and then we'll move on and talk about Rorschach.
Gehenna scheduled to play at Gilman. I don't think the whole band can make it. So you... go up on stage and play, I don't know what music it was, that part has escaped my memory, but you play something.
It was Project Pat.
Okay, yeah, you played Chicken Heads by Project Pat while eating a sandwich. No, no, it
wasn't Chicken Heads. It was Still Riding Clean by Project Pat.
And then while eating a sandwich and then go in the back and debate for your share of the door.
Sort of, sort of. So Jensen made it, I didn't make it, or no, I made it. Jensen made it. A few other folks didn't make it. So the most authentic delivery of what Gehenna sounds like when there's only two people at practice is one of us eats a burrito and the other one drinks a flask of whiskey and smokes a joint or a blunt, depending, you know, depends on what you have. So we played that. Jensen had a burrito.
I drank and smoked a joint, and then we finished that song, which was essentially exactly what finishing a game of practice, if only two of us showed up, would look exactly like. And then when it came time for everyone to get paid, we went ahead and figured out the money, and then I was like, hey, there's this band from... the UK, right. That, that, that came kind of a long ways. And I, I, I feel like we got to get paid because you're trying to pay them some equal share. So give us our bread.
And then we went ahead and made sure those guys got paid that money. We gave them the money. Like I didn't, I didn't want the money to go to fucking one away. Right. Like genuinely, I was like, dude, look, one away. And I, All these other fucking bands, like they have, you know, 700 kids lined up at their merch table. They've got all this shit going on.
And then you've got, you know, a band from the UK that has barely anything and it's a long way from home and hasn't really made much money on tour. I'm going to go ahead and ask for our share of money and then I'm going to pass it to these dudes. So that's what I did. But I don't give a fuck. I mean, I'm never shy about saying, you know, fuck you, pay me. You know what I mean? I'm always upfront about that.
I think a lot of that, though, has to do with the fact that it's, I think, genuinely important to communicate that you're totally comfortable with with making sure everyone understands and agrees to the terms of the commitment, right? Which is kind of like, I don't know if you guys know Greg from Choke, but he does, he like book shows in Oakland and Greg is always super upfront and super honest and just the most reliable, raddest guy, right?
And Greg will tell me like, Like he booked this on a show and like told me, he's like, he's like, look, after I pay everybody, I think I can get you guys like a hundred bucks. And I was like, yeah, I don't care, Greg. I love you, man. Let's do the show. Like fuck the a hundred bucks. Like let's do the show. But Greg, like genuinely we finished playing and was like, no, man, I promised you that I could give you 100.
This is 100. And I was like, yo, man, like, not a big deal, but that's rad, you know? And I think people should kind of stick to their word about that kind of stuff, right? I feel like if you, you know, like when I booked Integrity at the Soul Kitchen in El Cajon, like, you know, it was like $600 was their guarantee. I had $600 sitting there waiting for them whether I was going to make $600 or not. I didn't make $600 on the show at all, but they had a $600 guarantee.
I made sure I paid them out, right? Same thing when I booked, you know, like Earth Crisis or Guilt or any other bands that I booked. I made that commitment. There's a lot of promoters that are pretty great about that stuff. You know, there's a lot of folks that, you know, genuinely, when they commit to something, they stand by it. And that's the one thing I really do love about like all the older folks in hardcore, they all seem to be really committed to that and really by their word.
I mean, like Joe McKay, that dude is just fucking as straight as they come. Like he, he like tells you how much that he could go ahead and give you. That's how much you're getting. He's not fucking with you. He's going to pay you. He's not going to bullshit you. He's not going to fuck you around. You know what I mean? And, and I will say, that you could hear it in his podcast. He hasn't spent any money on good equipment or audio engineering or anything like that.
And so Joe, next time you book a show for us, save the money, get a better microphone.
No, he's got a pro mic dude. I love that show.
I love that show too, but I got to talk shit.
Shout out to hardcore. Shout out. This is hardcore podcast.
And I genuinely, like I'm saying again, man, I, I love Joe. I think that dude's great, man. And he's another guy that the rap he gets and the stories about that guy are like, they're the longest, most drawn out horse shit stories about a dude that more than likely said, fuck you. I'm not going to let you talk to me that way. Or fuck you. You're not going to fuck with my friends that way. And they became like, and then Joe drove a tank through the front of the building and You know what I mean?
He's great, though. I love that guy.
Yeah, it rules. The fight lasts for hours, each ram battering the other dozens of times.
Head to head.
All right, we are going head-to-head. We are putting the first two Rorschach LPs head-to-head. Remain Sedate came out on Veriform in 1990, and the Protestant LP comes out on Wardance in 1993. Dan, head-to-head, what you taking?
This is a really good thing that Mike suggested. Like, this is... Two records that are unbelievably musical for being so brutal. And it's... Listening to these, I've listened to them over time, lots of times. I have Remains to Date, but I don't have the Protestant LP on Wax. But... I'm just going to break them down into two different things and then come to my conclusion. So remains to date.
It, it like totally has a heavy discharge influence or to me has a heavy discharge influence without it being a DB record, you know even just visually, it looks very dischargey. The base on this recording is, is higher.
It's a little bit more hardcore, I won't even say hardcore of its day, but it definitely is pulling some influence from the, you know, 87 through 89 kind of hardcore with like stops and starts and interesting things that potentially youth crew bands were doing, but they sound extremely different in the, in the world of Rorschach. Lots of driving guitar, pick slides, brutal. Charles's voice is deeper and breathy and definitely, probably more, was an influence slash peer of DWID.
It's a lot lower and screamier. I mean, lower and deeper, even though it's full on screaming. And then it has those kind of screamy backups throughout the LP that... that you could then hear like aped by like Ben Reed on the early earth crisis stuff. Um, like backups that are a little bit out of the, out of the, um, typical style backups.
Um, and then, you know, you go to the Protestant LP to talk about this being a highly influential, influential LP is just, not even scratching the surface because they incorporate those jazzy and off-time elements a lot more on this record than the previous one. Just completely influencing bands like Converge, Dillinger Escape Plan, Cave-In, etc. that all started to utilize this stuff.
I mean, this may sound like little bit of hyperbole but this is almost like absolutely brutal hardcore played by the mothers of invention frank zapper's band like it there's so much like musicality there's so much um musical theory knowledge going into this while it's still being sincerely like some of the most brutal hardcore out there and um Charles's voice on this LP is a lot higher in the register. It's a lot of a higher screamy vocal and it sounds so good.
And so almost like his throat is being ripped apart on, on many of the songs. And this, you know, this LP and the first LP go on to influence a lot of probably what would come out on three, one G as well in, in, you know, like your Jenny Piccolos, et cetera, stuff like that. Um, it's really interesting putting up a band's first and second LPs up against each other when they still, you know, somewhat sound alike, but there is a definite, um, there's a definite like advancement musically.
If you are thinking in, in regard to, um, just technique, I suppose. But, I mean, this is a very, very underrated band. This is one of those ones, like, that everyone who's seen them has nothing but, like, just so many superlatives to, like, talk about and If I'm going to have to pick one, I'm going to go with Remain Sedate. Just because... God, it's so difficult. But if I'm going with Remain Sedate, it's probably because of Pavlov's Dogs. That song is incredible.
And then Lightning Strikes Twice. And this is one of the first... songs where a sample has blown me away even before the song starts. Like it just is, it's just talking about, you know, the Holocaust and it is extremely jarring just to listen to the sample. And then the song kicks in and the lyrics are amazing. And it has all of these different parts that it goes through. Like, so I'm going to go with remain sedate.
I think that this is the underrated band. And I'll go more into it when I take my piece so I don't spoil my shit. But I was so stoked he chose this one, Mike. I think, like, I listened to this again, you know, a lot over the last week, these two records. And I was like, this is the most underrated shit ever. I've always loved one of these. And, like... Then there was a little bit of guilt that I was feeling, too. Like, Jesus, we have a platform. Why am I not pushing this stuff all the time?
Because it's out of this world. Mike, what's your take? This LP, first LP versus second, head-to-head.
So I think there's – and I heard everything you're saying there, and I think there's so much – authentic value in what you're saying and what Dan's saying about these two records. But I think that my preference is a little bit different. And it may come from a different perspective of why I chose my preference. On both records, you're looking at a band that's kind of pushing themselves, right? remains sedate. You could definitely hear it that they're pushing themselves.
And even in, in like, uh, like in lightning strikes strikes twice, you know, like what, what Danny was saying, man, it sounds like the band's going to implode before that final breakdown, right? They're just going a million miles an hour and just sound like they're going to just fall apart. And then that breakdown comes in and, uh, Charlie says, submit to your higher power. And that, uh, riff comes in that Keith plays that's so cruel and vicious and punishing sounding.
And it just makes you want to just take a hammer and smash the fuck out of anything in sight. And it's why I don't have hammers around when I listen to this record. But it's also like there's this thing that happens when you sort of compare the two LPs. Protestant has... so many progressive rock elements to it, right? Which goes back to what Danny says about the Zappa things.
And it has all these King Crimson kind of things going on that only makes sense if you understood that, you know, Keith was such a Voivod nerd, right? He was so obsessed with that band. And the idea of having those bizarre time signatures and those inverted chords and all of those things that were just... sort of challenging as a player to make sound good, but also we're just assembled in a way to have the most unsettling and disturbing kind of feeling as you're listening to the record.
And that's why I think Protestant is such an incredible record. However, on the first press of each of these records, there's a slight thing about them that puts one over top of the other. Protestant was pressed to go on their tour. And on the first press, it was a white label on both sides. So originally I listened to it on the B side as the first side all the time. And it took until I actually read the matrix to find out the difference from the A and the B side.
On the first press of Remains to Date, there was a sticker on the upper right-hand corner that said file under fuck. So for that reason, I'm taking Remains to Date.
That's a great reason. I think that Remains to Date is like, you know, we fucked around talking about Burn, you know, a minute ago. Who? And this is right there. This is like where everything builds up to, right? Like Hardcore in its initial incarnation is building to something and is building to the Burn 7-inch, is building to... Inside Out, No Spiritual Surrender, and it's built into this. This is so creative and pushing the boundaries while still being firm-footed in straightforward hardcore.
They always come back to it, and they're dipping off on these little tangents. You don't hear any power violence in this, really. There is a tad bit on, I believe, the last song, I don't know, Press. There's a little bit of crossed out influence there, but it doesn't seep into this record. But you can tell it's there because there's so much YOLO. You can tell these guys are into that shit, I think. But this is just so straightforward, so good, and then so zany over the top at the same time.
They do the thing that is what sets apart a good hardcore band from a great hardcore band. They have a three-minute slow song that fucking kills everything. You know, the No One Dies Alone song? And, you know, like Dan was saying, it bangs off the start with the Pavlov's Dogs, the Lightning Strikes Twice standout track. But just going back to that No One Dies Alone, it's like, good God. And they kind of, they bury it. It's like late in the record.
It could almost be like the four track, you know, where you're building your whole album around. This thing bangs. It bangs so hard. In fact, there's a couple songs on here that... like the least standout tracks. I didn't grab the names, but they're just like straightforward. And it's like, it adds to the meat kind of how we were just recently talking about the chisel LP, Daniel. Like I love when the backbone of stuff is like straightforward, hardcore, and then everything branches out from that.
Like, I don't know if I need my like straightforward, hardcore space for things to fall back onto to make me love them. But like, this has enough of it that I can do. And it pushes the boundaries enough that like, it gets me out of my comfort zone, but it, I can always pull back to the meat and cheese there in the middle. The second record, it goes too far for me. It's just not the style of hardcore I like that much, but it is amazing listening to this that it doesn't sound dated.
If you listen to most LPs from 1993, they sound like they came out in 1993, and this just sounds... like it could be a modern hardcore band, right? Like it is so ahead of its time. It is so influential. And, you know, Dan kind of name checked like a couple of bands that, that pull from this and that's not like my lane at all. So I can just, I guess I'll have to take his word for it, but yeah, this just sounds so modern and so good. And the vocals are a little more shredded.
The music's a little wilder, but the songs also get longer.
So it loses like that, that mainline hardcore, vibe that i get on the first one and uh yeah i'm going to remain sedate this this is a pretty easy one for me although i think that for most people that like modern hardcore protestant might be the one for them and again i just want to echo that like this is so underrated and so like not name checked enough like these days like these two records are awesome and you know they're also on spotify so there's no excuse to not check this stuff out We'll
put some key tracks in the playlist for this episode. You can go to 185milesouth.com. At the top, there's a playlist link. You can listen to songs that we talk about because that's what it's about, the music. Yeah, but that's fucked up, 3-0. I thought someone was going Protestant for sure.
You know, I've got to say, too, stuff like Minds and Advice and Someone, those are, I think, what you're talking about when you say the straightforward, hardcore songs that draw sort of – everything back in Remain State. And I totally agree with that. I think it really has that ability to like cross over and it's that pure kind of crossover sound.
I know that I might be beating this to death, but I think really one of the things that you mentioned was that the records are kind of timeless, right? They sort of stand up to what the original thing was. But it's probably really important if you are going to listen to it, listen to the band chronologically, listen to the first record, and then listen to the second record. And you'll see the progression of the band and the change and whatnot. But I think they're both brilliant records.
I think that listening to it in chronological order makes the most sense, especially because I think that most people – If you like one, you're going to like the other. But I can definitely see that people could look at these albums as being on completely different islands as well. So, but good God, I mean, this stuff is just timeless.
I mean, the only, if I was going to say a knock on the first record on Remains to Date, like the recording does sound a little bit dated, which is amazing because like the Protestant album for 1993 sounds so bright and so good and you can hear everything.
you know i do wonder if like if remains to date have like like if they went to fucking dawn fury i can't imagine if i have the burn seven inch recording on this lp it's like good god it's kind of like one of those it's just like one of those maddening what ifs like what if the breakdown demo had like a good recording or if they went back and they like re-recorded like the raw deal like did the killing time lp you know
can you imagine it at normandy sound
Yeah, exactly. That's what I meant to say.
He
went to
Normandy. The drums would be just fucking barbaric. They'd be so nuts.
But I think that's what makes Remains to Date sound that as punk as fuck as it is, almost like where I said it has a strong discharge influence because it has that, dare I say it, almost like crust production.
Absolutely. It would have shined through though, even with a bright recording.
Yeah. Just like kind of how tragedy does.
Yeah. In the musicianship here is just so good that it's like, you almost do want to hear everything. Like there's a little bit buried in the recording.
Yeah. But I mean, it's funny that we all went through, you know, because I don't think the, the difference between the LPs, obviously Zach and I, the first one's more in our lane of like what we want to listen to entirely. But the Protestant LP is so well done. And so like, like you say, produced perfectly to where it's so listenable in 2021, but also just every song you listen to, you're like, Oh, I know that they, I know this band loved them because of this.
And I know this, you know, it's, unbelievably influential and not just within hardcore. They influenced metal bands and math rock bands and everything off of that. You can tell. And then a fun fact is the song Pavlov's Dogs from Remains to Date is in the film Zero Dark Thirty as being used to torture suspected terrorists. They're blasting them with that music super, super loud.
Which is so random, right? Because I think that in real life they played Cannibal Corpse, you know? And it's like, so what, what fucking sick music director was there on that movie? That's like, nah, dogs like slide this one in.
Yeah. I think that's, that's kind of like one of those things that kind of shows the, the, the, the general cruelty and viciousness and, and, and harshness of that record. Right. That in 1993, when that record came out, it was so mind blowing that, That in 2007, I guess, was that Zero Dark Thirty? Maybe it was 2000, I don't know. Whatever. In 2000 whatever, they could say, oh, this is going to be shocking to the general public because it's so harsh. Yeah, that's fair.
Even a decade later with so much like... you know, musical evolution of like brutality. They're like, yeah, this thing from 1990 still sounds like the opening track of an LP in 1990 sounds brutal.
Yeah. Like when I was a POW, they used to play burn and it was so bad. I was like, it sounds like shit.
Yeah, man. All right. Let's wrap.
Yeah.
All right, we're doing a One's Gotta Go on the Mighty Schism Records. The year is 1988, and there are four releases. And don't get at me arguing about the fourth release, if it's official or not. So here's what they are. Project X 7-Inch, Straight Edge Revenge, The Wide Awake, Connecticut Hardcore 7-Inch, Judge, New York Crew 7-Inch, and we're also including... The Can't Close My Eyes LP reissue from Youth of Today, which came out on Schism and put through Caroline. And Discogs, it's all wonky.
It says that there's a cassette too, but I haven't seen it. I have seen the LP repress that says Schism. So that's what's up. That's what we're doing. Mike, one's got to go. Which one are you losing?
So it's kind of tough here. I mean, the first... release on the label is the PX 7-inch, right? And that record is just monumental. It has the most well-thought-out, most detailed and musical song that's ever been written by a band. Cross me. It's brilliant. Genuinely, I'm not kidding. I think that song is brilliant because it's so to the point direct, and it's just perfect. That 7-inch in general is just flawless.
Then the second release on the label is New York Crew, another flawless record, right? I've never heard keyboards ruin a song so utterly and completely as they did in Warriors, right? But still, the record's perfect. Like, it's just incredible. Release number three is where I think Porcel probably said, hey, Alex, I got this idea. Youth of Today signed this thing with Caroline. We could probably say that we will license Can't Close My Eyes with bonus tracks to you if you kick us some extra cash.
And that probably gave them the money to put out release number four, right? Release number four, Wide Awake, Connecticut Hardcore. I mean, what can I say? The back cover has Bobby Shmurda's hat coming off. It's the most metal of the records. Even though it doesn't have the most metal production, it has the most metal sort of writing to the musicality on it. But one's got to go.
I've got to say I'd get rid of the Wide Awake, kind of throw it in the air like Bobby Shmurda's hat and save the title for the show.
Yeah, the Wide Awake 7-Inch has the boldest song on all this, with the first song, Last Straw, being an early hardcore opus. For being such a youth-free song and just having so many parts, the sincerity and the intent of this band runs through this record so hard that it's impossible for me to pick against. So I'm keeping Wide Awake.
Now, there's no way... can lose can't close my eyes because uh shout out darren pesky now respond to your facebook messages because we want you on the pod darren what's up and then i can't lose judge new york crew it's like you know one of the best hardcore sandwiches ever you know so mad so simple in that way that it's like why did i not think of this you know like i to say it simple is That's like the wrong word to use, but it's just so straightforward and perfect. I don't know.
And then Project X, great record, maybe a little LARPy. I'm going to lose it to offend Dan Sant because I hate the cover. And that's that. I'm losing Project X. Dan, what's your take?
Well, that's the wrong take to take. Well, first and foremost, all I have to say is like, I'm as straight as the line that you sniff up your nose. Dan, I
got to tell you, I don't know. I cut lines very, very accurately.
Well, the hammer that I draw back that writes my name in hell will not allow me to get rid of Project X. That's for sure. So Project X is a keeper. Judge New York crew is a keeper. Now, yes, here's where things might go technical. Can't close my eyes. Already been put out. Obviously, it doesn't have the two bonus tracks that we've discussed earlier. And I do like the scam of scamming Caroline into paying him for it, which is great.
But when shit goes down, and no one's around, just you and him, you got to get rid of Count Clovis. My eyes repress.
Wow. Yeah, but let me say, how about this? This is an early version of doing the greatest thing in hardcore, which is repressing an EP on a superior format, the 12-inch. So it should stay just for that. In 1988, repressing a 7-inch is a 12-inch, so it fits into your collection nicely. can be alphabetized with all the rest of your great LPs. What's up?
That's a really interesting point, but you know what? Because you love that and you've smited me by getting rid of one of the greatest 7-inch covers ever featuring fatty Xs being put on hands, I am going to get rid of this because it was repressed on a 12-inch and I prefer the 7-inch version. So there. Goodbye, Can't Close My Eyes and Wide Awake Stays. I've
been always a little personally offended by the drunk in the pit line. You
can be drunk in the pit. You just don't have to be hurting my friends.
I mean, genuinely, though, and I'm not sure I totally follow you. Zach, I mean, do you not find that record, though, sonically to be just more interesting than... than the other records? Cause that's me. I think it's so abrasive.
Yes. It's perfect, dude. You chose to do schism. It's like, this is impossible, right? It's four for four.
Yeah.
You know, it's really tough. Yes. If I took it head to head, if I took the project X seven inch versus the wide awake seven inch, I'm taking project X in a serious world, but in a world where I want to, uh, Mike cheeseburger, Dan Sant,
right.
I'm, uh, I'm taking Connecticut wide awake.
Yeah, and I mean, hey, when shit goes down, no one's around. Just you and him. No way he'll win. We can turn our backs. We don't need to fight. We'll go to the bar and get two Bud Lights.
Yeah. Yeah,
there
you go. No, when shit goes down, no one's around. Just you and him. No way he'll win. I'll stay outside the back of the showcase there, and I'll say, hello, boys.
All right. Well, this has been great. Mike, thanks so much for doing this.
Yeah, no worries, man. I had a lot of fun. You know, like I said, I'm a fan. I listen to the podcast and stuff. And I think, you know, maybe, you know, initially when you asked me, I might have come across sounding really weird and defensive when I was like, nah, I don't want to do that. Let's do Rorschach. Let's do, you know, the schism catalog. But I genuinely think that those are maybe things that didn't happen before on the podcast. So I thought it might work.
I think they're great. And yeah, anyone we have on, we would love for them to choose. I'm just trying to be as low impact as I can. So I try to choose things that I think are in people's lane because I don't want to have to ask anyone to do any homework. Sure.
Yeah, yeah. Reducing your carbon footprint, right?
Yeah.
That's right. My homework carbon footprint. But anyway, yeah. Thanks so much for doing this, Mike. You've been great.
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Thanks.