Welcome to the Baer Faxt Podcast. I'm your host and executive producer, Luyang Jiang. This episode is brought to you by David Zoner. They also have a great podcast called Dialogues. Give you a lesson after this episode. Our guest today is artist Alicia Cuada. Alicia is known internationally for her sculptures, expensive public installations, films, photography, and works on paper that challenge our perceptions of scientific and philosophical concepts.
which are showcased in leading art institutions globally and in high demand in both the primary and secondary markets. I have a lot of questions about her personal and artistic journey, but from what I have seen of her work, I know she's someone who isn't afraid to tackle some tough questions. So, on a sunny afternoon in early June, I sat down with her in her Berlin studio.
Instead of starting with her childhood and how she became an artist, which you will hear about later in this episode, I decided to dive right into a topic that many artists might shy away from, the art market. I asked her what she thinks about the role of artists in understanding the dynamics of the art world, including the art market. And the pricing of their works. I
have a bit mixed feelings about that because I think it's not that most people are too shy about it. It's kind of hard to emotionally understand the art market as an artist. Because it's so different to what you do, at the need and, I mean, like the biggest desire, but like a need, like a addiction. So it's kind of hard to really emotionally understand this kind of market. I can, personally, I can intellectually understand it, but I cannot emotionally understand it.
That's why it's also hard for me to understand auctions, for example. I'm not getting the point why pieces on auctions are so much more expensive sometimes. From a living artist, you could just go next door to a gallery and buy it for half price. I'm not getting the point really. I mean, I can get it. Of course, I can get it from the dynamics a bit of the art market, but still it feels not like, uh, I think it's such a, yeah, different kind of way of thinking and feeling.
So it's kind of difficult for most artists to adapt on that really honestly. That's why they better step away. But it's also many cliches, you know, saying, okay, we have nothing to do with the art market. You know, we leave it or the other, but I don't think so at all. On the other hand, that's why, you know, in there, for example, I mean, I'm going to art first quite a lot, uh, and I like to see it. I, I kind of like to see what's going on.
It's, it's, for me, it's like, you know, I can like, just in a couple of hours, I know what all my colleagues are doing right now, what the prices are, who's showing whom. Who's supporting whom, you know, I'm always like reading like, you know, like at each unlimited or something. And I'm like, okay, which gallery is doing this or this or being honest. It's interesting for me. So I'm very well informed after I left an art for example.
But then of course there's the saying, and you know, I hear it every time people see me on an art market, it's like this Baldassare saying, like an artist on an art front is like watching your parents having sex. Well, but that is like 30 years ago as well, you know, we're like this roles of being as gallerist or as a salesperson and curator and an artist have been very clear. So everybody had his rule back then. That's my feeling.
I mean, I've been not really in the art market in the 80s, but that's what I kind of imagined. And it's still, I kind of get to know, you know, when I kind of started in the artwork. So I think it was a very clear, you know, setup. Who's doing what, and the artist was the artist, you know, like, it was, you know, fun to have them drunk and crazy. There was, like, the intellectual curator, and there was the mean shark, you know, the business person.
But now it gets, you know, the world is changing, and it gets much softer, those kind of borders, due to the access to different medias, due to many, many things. There is a couple of artists, and I'm including myself to this group actually, who are very aware of what they do. And about their prices, about, you know, which pieces are going where, and to whom, and you know, about the inventories and all of that. I am controlling that pretty much, and I am very aware of what I do.
I guess, I mean, I believe at least. So I think, you know, those borders are getting softer. Even, you know, the term to be represented by a gallery seems like a bit kind of odd because it's like, what do you mean it's represented? Represented is like, you know, having an artist on your silver tray and showing it to the world. I don't know. You know, but in most cases that is also another story right now.
I think it's more shifting towards like a corporation than, you know, being someone's artist. But this is what my feeling on the one hand, but as I said in the beginning, on the other hand, still this dynamics of the art market, really, you know, of all these auctions and sales and stuff like that. This is so different to my own, you know, spot of interest and my own kind of Priorities and my own sources that it still is very abstract to me and I also don't feel super sure about it.
So it's for me, it's super hard to judge. For example, if my design auctions, I have no idea if it should get, if it's good, if it's sold very high or if it's not good, if it's, you know, just for the average or it's good. If it falls through sometimes, it's kind of hard for me to follow this logic.
So recently I've been talking to some couple young artists that I recommend them to listen to our podcast for a couple episodes, including one artist in Finland. He's still in the art academy. And he said, wow, that's fascinating. I didn't even know all those terms. And I think since we launched the Bare Facts podcast from last March, there's a reason why we don't have that many artists yet. Such as this topic, when I said earlier, people tend to kind of shy away from this topic.
It's like, oh, hey, I'm an artist. I shouldn't talk about art market or my price. But I guess there's a kind of balance. I mean, from what I see is, like, the young artist told me, he said, it's so good to know what's out there. I mean, including when you talk about the gallery representation. For young artists, it's really hard. They said, you know, I make art, of course, I want more people to see, but I have no clue. I don't have a team. I have no clue how I get more people to see my art.
This young artist, by the way, I was introduced by our designer who made our table. And he saw our artworks because we buy artworks and then we have pieces in the house. And then he's like, oh, you should see this one. And I saw his booth. I saw this painting. So I asked him to introduce me to the artist. That's how I found it. But at the same time, the artists, many of them, I met them, they're still kind of building up their career.
And I personally, I don't believe that people say artists has to be starving artists in order to make good art. And that's why I wanted to ask the question, you know, because you are considered as more established artists. I wonder for, especially for younger artists, how should they, you know, define their role with the interaction with the art world?
I think there's two sides, you know. There's when you're also growing in your role, you know, and that's hard to kind of describe. But I think the only thing to do as a young artist is being visible. You have just to use any chance you're getting to make yourself visible. And this is kind of, you know, multiplying your chances because you just need one person to support you. You know, you don't need the whole world to love you.
In the beginning, you need one curator who kind of, you know, seen it, discovered it, and is putting in your show. Or one gallerist who believes in the pieces and he's starting to work with you. Or one collector who is kind of, you know, fascinated by it. You know, there should be not too much pressure. It's not that you need like a complete system. You need one, two, three people, and then it goes further. But to reach out to those people, of course you need to be visible.
And I still believe that it's better to be physically visible somehow. I mean, of course you can do Instagram and all of that, but there's so much things going on. So it's a little bit hard to fill out, I think, but I think, you know, any group shows, whatever, you know, and people are still looking at that things, you know, they're passing by the seats, hanging somewhere and somebody's whatever, you know, flat, you know, give it away, just do it, you know, get it out for free.
And nobody's paying in the beginning, of course. I mean, it takes a while. But then about, because it's interesting what you said, you know, about the suffering artists and the role of the artists. And of course, we all know that. I mean, it's an empty cliché, you know. Um, most of artists we still know from art history have not been suffering artists. I mean, there's a few exceptions, but just a few. Most of them, um, being established and making a possibly quite good life out of that.
Not all of them, I'm not saying, but it's, you know, it's this cliche because this cliche is like a desire, you know? I mean, that's a funny role. That's like a game, right? The cliche of the collector, who is this very rich person, you know, kind of established in his work and life and whatever. And then there's a poor, you know, but mind free artist who is looking for, you know, wants to change the world.
And then the rich person is buying, you know, kind of a, you know, Peace of this free mind probably you know of this idea of this kind of spirit, but this is a cliche of course It's not not always like that, right? I mean there's different constellations, but what I kind of learned also not to live with this kind of idea of a role It's fine. I mean, this is how the world kind of functions, you know, everybody has to play his part. And if it's until it's not harming anyone, it's well out.
After the break, I'll talk to Alicia about her childhood, how she ended up moving to Germany with her family from Poland in the 80s. And how her school days and experiences as an immigrant shaped her artistic path later in life.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is brought to you by David Zwirner. Their podcast, Dialogues, is about artists and the way they think, with each episode featuring a conversation with artists, writers, filmmakers, and musicians exploring what it means to make things today. Tune in for conversations with artists like Njideka Akunyili Crosby, Elizabeth Payton, and more. Rikrit Tiravani and so many more subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
You moved to Germany with your family when you were eight, right?
I mean, moved is probably not the right term, to be honest. You know, I believe that we are going on a summer holiday. And, um, I'm still on the summer holidays because it's never end. Actually, because, you know, it was back in 1987. I was eight years old. And, I mean, they've been fleeing the country. But it was super difficult because back then, uh, it was, you know, very, um, unusual to, um, that the government or the, like, the border would let the whole family go.
Usually they would just allow, like, one family member or two to leave the country. But then we've been lucky because we had, you know, like, through some connections. My aunt, as a sister of my mother, she married, like, a police guy. And so he had some connection to the border control people. And then we had an invitation from other family member from France and they invited us for a wedding actually. So they allowed us to go to this wedding for like four days or something.
And we had this super tiny car, you know, this Polska Fiat. And I believe that we are going on a summer holiday thing. And then after a while, I kind of noticed that the summer holiday is really long. Permanent holiday away from You know, and let's say refugee camps are not really like hotels.
So it was a bit like, okay, but yeah, it's, it's, yeah. And your dad. I mean, I read the story. I actually was planning to ask you. I mean, so glad you already started sharing this story. But your dad did something very clever about like a hiding something. Cause he's really afraid.
He was super scared that I told that on the interview was because he was like, Oh my God, the techs will like be running after me to get, to get some money. No. I think it's, I think it's so long ago. They can't, uh, they can't get him anymore. Uh, yes, it was because, you know what, he was running a gallery in Poland. So, um, when they kind of knew that they are going to leave the country, you know, he sold all art pieces he could, um, sell. And they tried to buy dollars and gold.
I mean, you know, the kind of the things which you can kind of use everywhere on the planet. And he kind of implanted this gold in the doors of the car and the lights of the car. So it was all over with like wax and gold. And then I remember when we've been at the border and you have, you know, these people talking and dogs and that, and my mom, she was like shouting at me and my brother and just saying, okay, you pretend to sleep, you sleep, you sleep, you sleep, no matter what you sleep.
And then she was putting all this dollar bills in all our clothes. So we've been like, you know, like, I mean, not that big, unfortunately, but we've been like, um, sitting in the back of the car, pretending to sleep with this dollar, like, you know, stuffed with this dollar kind of, so yeah, it's, it was a story and suddenly we've been on this parking slot and at night and we kind of, you know,
uh,
opened,
you know, I'll tell you how I started kind of interacting with your artwork. But I forgot at which point I start reading about you, but after I read about this story, and I have to say, when I look at some of your sculpture work, it was kind of like a two different material, like, you know, melting together. And the story always comes like, I wonder if there is some impact. You
know, yeah, I mean, it's good to be honest, you know, when I was younger, I somehow, So I'm a singular creature and I am in this world in my tunnel and I'm not influenced by anything and I don't want to be influenced by anything. Because the most boring thing for me is, to be honest, the biography of people. I'm more interested in what they do right now, but that was like what I was thinking when I was younger.
So I was a bit arrogant and I thought that I can go through this world with my mind and my body not being influenced by anything. And back then I would always say, no, it's, there's no influence about my biography and my work at all. Of course, this is bullshit because you can't cut away yourself from your life. I mean, this is, you know, the influences, even if you don't want them, probably they get you even stronger. But still, I mean, I was never looking for it.
So I was never, you know, like digging in my life or my biography or my heritage or my whatever to source for, um, inspiration or my art. Um, the sources back then have been like super, you know, let's say objective, you know, like science, uh, like quantum physics, the most difficult things ever. Or, you know, social studies, stuff like that.
Um, but I got a bit old and wise and now I know that, yeah, of course, I'm sure there have been influences even that I was trying not to, you know, let them in.
I was asking myself, like, what would Alicia be if she didn't become an artist? But I remember, um, in the previous interviews that you, from early age, you knew you wanted to become an artist. And, um, but I picture, if you didn't become an artist, you could be a philosopher. And musician or quantum physicist?
I would say musician, possibly
not. I'm really bad in this. Um, but, but indeed, you have another kind of hat on you. Like you still have the music record company, right?
Yes. I mean, I love that. But this is, to be honest, more because of my partner, Gregor. He's obsessed with music. So this is something I kind of related more, um, because of him. But indeed, you know, what I am obsessed with and what I love is kind of a certain logic and things. And so I like the idea of mathematics, even that I am really not good at it because I've never been, you know, educated in it. Um, and I love the logic of music and that's why I love science.
I mean, you know, this kind of funny try to invent because it's inventing. I mean, it's like inventing things to prove something and then to have the anti proof and then to start from the beginning. And, you know, using all the formulas to kind of explain the most difficult things in this world. And this automatically leads you to philosophy.
But to be honest, when I was young, I was not getting the point at all that, um, because I thought I'm going to be an artist, so I thought, like, I don't need, you know, to learn anything else. It was, you know, bullshit, you know, I just am an artist, that's it. So I kind of was not seeing the point that how influential and important also other disciplines can be for your own artistic development. So I was a bit like, I don't know, I had this idea, you know, I was like sitting in physics class.
and you know, whatever, polishing my nails black and whatever, you know, smoking cigarettes in the backyard, I mean, it was like, whatever, you know, whatever.
All those things prepared to be an artist. Yeah, but it's like the cliché, the most cliché idea,
you know. But even that, um, for funny reasons, and I was quite good in school, uh, I was lucky. But I think also I was good in school because, uh, when I was 11th grade, they'd be not allowed to judge my, uh, you know, how you call it, the writing anymore. So I got this, like, official, you know, dyslectic thing. And they'd be not so my, you know, all my, uh, all my degrees got much better. And so I, indeed, I started to study medicine for one semester or two.
But just because I was kind of curious about it. But then I very quickly actually quit it again. But I just kept it going, actually, for two semesters. Because back then I was supported by the BAföG Amt, which is the official, you know, like, um, government, uh, whatever institution, which is supporting students who would not be able to be supported by their families.
So they've been, I dunno, paying me by then 800 euros or whatever, you know, to make, I remember probably 600 or, or d marks, I think it was. But they've been not supporting people who have been studying more than one, uh, one subject, major subject. Yeah. But I actually, they took me for medicine and then they took me for art and I was like, okay, I just want to do both of them. And they've been like, no, because we're just supporting one, you know, you have to concentrate on one.
And so it took me like one year to fight it through. So I was going to each, you know, of those kind of institutions. And finally, after a year, they've been, OK, we agree, we support you in both. And then I was like, okay, I just leave.
I just leave. That shows a lot of your personality. Stay with us in a moment to hear about Alicia's recent exhibition co curated with Pace Gallery founder Arnie Glimcher that puts her work in conversation with Agnes Martins.
This episode of the Bare Facts Podcast is brought to you by David Zwirner. Their podcast, Dialogues, is about artists and the way they think. With each episode featuring a conversation with artists, writers, filmmakers, and musicians exploring what it means to make things today. Tune in for conversations with creatives from Luca Guadagnino, to Sofia Coppola, to Hilton Als, and so many more. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I want to switch our topic to your LA exhibition currently going on in Pace Gallery. I was thinking about this question when I was listening to your talk with Arnie. It reminds me of our last episode when Josh talked to, you know, Calder's, uh, grandson.
Ah, yeah.
I met him. Yeah, Sandy. So I shared with him a personal story. That's how I encountered with Calder's work. Because I went to university in Berkeley, studied business. It has nothing to do with art, so I wasn't really paying attention to art. But there was a big sculpture on the way to, it's a part of our school, uh, the museum piece. And after I passing by so many times every day, and I start searching for it. Because it start kind of like speaking to me.
And that's how I discovered Calder, and I start kind of went dive more deep, and then really like his work. And Sandy was saying, I think it's really important to share the story. He said, I'm so glad to hear it because that's what my grandfather wanted. And then he went on to actually talk about the background of the sculpture, which his grandfather donated to the school during the Vietnam War. And he said, look at what the world is like right now.
So we went on to talk about, like, being relevant to today. So that was the thinking when I was listening to your conversation with You know, Anglin's work and your work, although you're from a very different generation, many different backgrounds, but there's a lot of things that you can make relevant to today and to each other's works. And my experience of looking at your artwork from, I wrote it down from Shanghai, Hong Kong, Berlin, London Foundation, and I think London, New York. What else?
It's close to like, wow. I miss your Helsinki one. Sorry, before we moved to there. But there's three pieces in the city. I was asking myself the question, like how different every time I see your artworks, but I always feel like very, you know, kind of updated to, cause I'm changing, right? Since the first time I saw your works probably 10 years ago. And that also kind of makes me wonder the topic that you, you know, you focus on a lot of kind of time.
One specific example I wish you can, you know, share with our audience is about the snow piece that you talk about it because you were talking about your childhood earlier. And it sounds like in a way you try not to kind of talk about your biography, how that kind of make an impact to your current life. But the story you told about the snow kind of answered that question a little bit. Right? I'm sure your son will look at the snow now playful, beautiful. It's different than your childhood.
Yeah, I mean, but I have to jump shortly back to your cul de sac story, because I love your cul de sac story, because this is, like, exactly why I started to believe in public art so much.
And I have a similar cul de sac story, but I mean, I was focusing on art back then already, but I was about 15, and I was going to school in Hannover, in the city of Hannover, and we, you know, every time we've been, like, cheating and getting out from the classes, We would meet at the big orange thing, you know, to smoke pot and to have beer or whatever. And I'd just seen it from underneath, you know, so I've just seen this orange kind of dome. And I never got that that was a sculpture.
It took me quite a while. And once I got it, I was, that's so fantastic, you know, to have this big, It's a big immense thing just in the city sitting next to the river, but just, you know, to kind of connect to your,
um, co listering. No wonder every time I, especially, you know, including a couple of years ago, I think the one that you did with Art Basel, um, it was like two years ago, I think, right? I didn't check the map. With your work, it's also kind of weird. Like I kind of always ran into your work, not by planning or some of the exhibition planned. But that one, particularly, I walked by on the bridge, rushing to my next meeting, and I saw, also, that's Alicia's work.
Yes, it's not, actually, it's funny, I mean, I love my snow piece. I think it's a very, everybody, every artist can kind of, I think, follow my, you know, the speeding. So every time you're doing a new piece, it's like, you know, like, euphoric. You're like, yes, you know, that's fantastic. But then it changes sometimes, but, um, so I was very afraid about snow peas and I still am. It's just kind of very untypical for me. I think that people not always recognize it with me.
I had it in Mexico first, now I'm having it in Los Angeles. And it's actually this, because it looks like dirty city snow, so it's not this perfect kind of white, you know, uh, virgin like whatever idea of a snow. But it's more, I took like some grayish, you know, Carrara. So, um, and what I did that I've been waiting to do this piece for many years, but it was never snowing in Berlin. You should come to Helsinki next time. Yes. It was not snowing in Berlin. It was not snowing in Berlin.
And then I go back to my childhood. And then I was sitting there with John, my assistant, and I was like, John, we have to go to Norway or like to Helsinki right now. It's the last chance to do that. And she was like, you know, my sister, she's living in Vancouver and she's always fighting and complaining about all the snow and on her parking slot. And she's like a tech freak, you know, so I can ask her to 3D scan it for us. And I was like, okay, really?
Okay. So, uh, we asked sister Jo and she 3D scanned it for us. I mean, the snow she had in the city on her parking slot. And so it's the original data of this moment, of this specific day in February 2022. And why I really wanted to do the piece is that I remember, like, I mean, I don't know what it was. It came back to my memory, I think.
But first of all, I kind of, every time I see snow in cities, like this moment, you see something, you wish to kind of have it or, you know, as a child to play with it. But it's kind of already coming dirty and ugly, and in the moment you want to, you hope for more, it disappears. So it's this very, um, slight moment of a natural phenomenon, which is implanted in the city structures, and which actually has not so much to do with a natural phenomenon, rather than with a memory, to me.
Of course, it's different if you live in Helsinki, I guess, or, you know, or wherever, you know. Probably doesn't have a story, but like, actually, at my, in my childhood, and it was the case. And so I kind of tried to, you know, capture kind of this moment of phenomena, which is already disappearing in the moment you look at it. And it never is, you know, keeping the same shape or attitude. Yeah, it's like memories, actually. It's like whenever you look at them, they are different.
And then you think, you know, you invent them yourself as if you would invent like a beautiful day playing in the snow. For me in Katowice, actually, it was playing in the dirt and not in the snow. But I, you know, I've been trying to put this imagination on it. I think it has also to do because my birthday is in January, so I always was hoping for, you know, like, snow. And yeah, usually it was like a, you know, dirty mix of coal and dust and whatever. But it's even not so much about myself.
It's really about, you know, kind of capturing this moment and also thinking about natural phenomenons. This, also about this idea, I mean, you know, I would never like, you know, raise my finger and say, Oh, don't do that, don't take care. But it's probably a phenomena as snow itself will just get a memory. in 50 years or 100.
It's something which will not appear any longer and then it's actually not this cliche thing which I was trying to make visible but more like this This piece of real city life and memory, yeah.
Every time I look at your work, I mean, it's always very pleasant to look. I remember our interview with Sandy also, I think in the very beginning of the conversation he mentioned that lots of people look at color's work and think it's beautiful. He says this is really, you know, not, it should be, and it's more than that. But your work also, I think, it's beautiful. It's so easy to look at it, but at the same time, you don't know why. I think it's from my early days looking at your work.
Normally, if it's something I'm very interested in, I try not to read too much text because I want it to feel like my own kind of organic reaction to that. So you feel this kind of deepness there, but at the same time also the light weight of sense of humor. Then after I start listening to more of your conversation, I'm like, Oh, you know, that's actually something in her work. So I'm glad that I had the experience to experience that first before I listened to your self explanation on that part.
How do you manage to do that? Because I feel like a lot of artwork you look at it, if it's a deep feeling that very, you know, very heavy, it's hard to balance. And at the same time, you can also add this, the humor part into it. You
know, to be honest, for now, I really had a lucky life. So I had no real dramas in my life. So that's why it's probably easy for me to, you know, to find humor in everything which I feel is deep and sad and even tragic, you know, for me, like each kind of tragical situation automatically leads to a certain kind of humor. Because things you can't get over and they are getting absurd, you know, like looking at us people. I mean, just looking at a human being is just pure fun.
I mean, those creatures, you know, who like believes that one is better than the other one because of different colors or whatever, different heights, different genders. It's just pure fun. It's so ironic. It's so stupid that you can just laugh, right?
So for me, whatever I try to research on, you know, even if I try to understand the most difficult physics if I try to understand the world on its own and then I go further, you know, from society to, you know, and then I kind of leave, leave the atmosphere and I look at the planet and then I'm in the void and it's so hard to believe.
So it's just the only thing is to love about it, you know, a love about yourself, you know, because we are all taking ourselves so serious and I think it's a pure, you know, the human itself is like a satire, you know, like a satiric creature on its own.
And that's why I believe that humor is a very important tool also to solve things and to solve things for yourself because otherwise you can just kill yourself, you know, because we will never find out anything about those things which are so important for us. And being kind of in this situation to know that you will never know, you have kind of to deal with that. You can love about it or you can just, you know, be super depressed about it.
But that's why I always try to give it a little, you know. A little to kind of also show these pieces of humor, which are indeed sourced from my very serious research or feeling.
After the break, Alicia explores how the scientific influences in her work reveal our shared humanity. From our common genetic code to our struggle to escape the passage of time,
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Well, listening to you, the image in my head was the exhibition, I think it was 2020 in Berlin Galleria. Yes. Where you produced this big installation with your own DNA elements. I, I found that one, maybe because it's during pandemic. This is, uh, one of your exhibition I left was very kind of heavy hearted, but at the same time, I like how you interpreted earlier. It was a kind of, you know, it's ironic and especially during that time what the world was going through.
I think we were still wearing masks going through, you know, inside your exhibition, looking at all those, it was like a couple hundred thousand pages of paper with your DNA coding on it and with your own heart beats, right? That exhibition kind of really left me with lots of questions. Today, when I'm talking to you, I still feel like my heart is pumping.
Yeah, that was an easy one. Especially that I really, you know, this heartbeat was like a, I had this life tracker. It was called in Abwesenheis, which means in absence. And so I was watching like this smart, um, watch. Of course, my heartbeat itself was pre recorded because you cannot implant like a microphone in your heart.
But so we kind of pre recorded my heart sequence like in a normal beating and then, but I had this clock and it was, you know, uh, transferring, uh, live the signal of my heartbeat. So whenever I was, you know, cycling, whatever it was, then it got, you know, slow. Which is very embarrassing, you know, so, that's why I decided, due to the title as well, that whenever I was stepping in the room, it was jumping over to the recorded. You know, kind of prerecorded.
So it was never like then kind of free because of you. But thank you for saying that. But yeah, I mean, you know, what can I say? It's really like about for me, I'm getting so obsessed with certain themes when I work on them and I try to find as you know, like everything out about one topic as much as I can.
Just to understand it to the fullest, to kind of, you know, probably also get to a point where it then starts to be my own work in a way that of course I cannot, and I don't need to actually prove it or understand it to the very deepest, but I mean, in this DNA work, for example, you know, I've been working with a friend of mine, he is a bureau chemist, and so, you know, he explained to me, and this is so fascinating, I mean, I learned so much about that, you
know, and then it was kind of filling my. which was just like a loose idea in the beginning with so much input somehow because the more I learned about it the more valuable but also like ironic it got you know, I mean what this DNA is that it was made of 12 reference people that you know, 99. 9 percent it's all the same to everyone But at least like 90 percent of this 99. 9 is just the information for the DNA, how it should fit in the cell. Who the hell was giving it this information?
You know, so it gets so, it's like science fiction, you know? But it's also frightening a little bit, because, you know, I'm still convinced that I'm wrong. That if people, if we would be educated on some issues, like for example the DNA, that everybody is the hell the same. There's not a big difference between.
I believe that if people would know about it and understand it, There would be, for example, no racism, no, you know, because there is no reason for it, you know, but unfortunately it's not true. I mean, that is then like something shocking to be aware of that, you know, that even knowledge is not helping. So what the hell is it? You know, my
daughter said, Something to me kind of almost like a shock. I mean, you know, again, I told you earlier, she's turning seven. So, um, I start reading Sophie's world to her since last year and she's definitely fascinated, right? And then she started kind of recording herself using my phone, like doing like, who are we? Like, she told me that question, like, you know, cause you were saying like, um, what the hell is those?
Like, cause everything, pretty much what we're saying right now, it's like human defined or we been given definition about it. My daughter asked me this, she said, Mommy, you know, because she loves animals and nature, and she gets really angry when she sees, like, people are doing it, and she's like, that's so wrong, you know, they came in before us, you know, and she said, I forgot what we were talking about, she said, but Mommy, what if it wasn't? It's just like, we humans give that, right?
But the nature exists long before us. Like, I don't even know how to answer her question. It's like, wow.
I mean, she's right. I mean, sometimes it's like, to be honest, I'm a very ironic person. And I'm always saying, you know, for me, humanity is like a plug, you know? I mean, I see it a bit like a daughter. You know, this world is existing about four million years. Humans, and they're just for, I mean, it's so not important. We're so tiny. It's so tiny. It's not important at all.
But unfortunately, most of us think that, you know, we think, where are they? But also,
and I actually, I have even to laugh about this problem. Okay. It's like a different understanding probably I have. I don't know. But for me also, of course, it's important to take care of this planet and take care of it and whatever, you know, and make sure that we are saving the world. But I think the wrong thinking is we are trying to save ourselves. The planet does not need us. It's going to be super fine without us. It's not going to heat up and explode. It's going to be fine.
It's just about our selfish, you know, it's about us. And then we try to whatever, wrap it up to something else. It's about us. I mean, and for sure, for right and stuff, but it's not, you know, the planet is super fine without us. No problem at all. I
mean, again, just by talking to you, like almost everything, you know, there's a, some topic kind of supposed to be heavy topic. You always can, you know, talk in a very kind of light way, but with a very meaningful interpretation, absolutely enjoy it. Another key words I was thinking about is, uh, you know, when you were talking about your childhood story, how you and your family end up coming to Germany, you know, the word of escaping.
And I know one of your big hero, if I could quote you, is Hobini, right? Yeah, Hobini, yeah. And I wonder, I was, uh, earlier you were talking about another piece you made about escaping, but again, in a very humorous way. And I know you're a big fan, you're a bookworm. Can I call you that?
Uh, to be honest, I used to be one, I used to be one. It's changed a little bit with my child, as you can, I think, understand. But, uh, yes, but I was, you know, I'm a very undisciplined person in reading. I mean, I was always reading like, you know, like, like five books in the meantime, but I probably even had no clue who was the author, but I would just be interested to, you know, whatever, to jump in this topic and this topic and this topic.
And yeah, I mean, I can say two of my kind of really like IP persons on this planet I've been obsessed with was Nikola Tesla and Houdini. Yeah, so somehow there are some interferences between the two because Tesla got a little bit mad in the end and, you know, he started to talk to aliens or whatever.
Yeah, because it's also like such a small, you know, a border between kind of science and, and you've, when you think science further, it really gets something so abstract that it's like magic, you know, there's no explanation for it. I'm not a person who believes in God or something like that. I feel that somewhere else through.
And what I also love about magicians, and I still love magicians really to the deepest when I see it, even I understand it, but I, you know, um, that, I mean, they are using those little gaps of our senses, you know, because we are very limited, you know, it's like what we see and what we believe to see, it's just an interpretation of our brains, we all know that, but still you can never see it until you're like watching a magician, and he is like, It's quick
enough or tricky enough to just sneak around your attention span or your senses. And then it's just, you know, fascinating. It's like, you know, another planet, you're kind of.
Yeah, I think knowing those stories and then the background kind of really helped to look at your work. I mean, I was thinking about now the work that you, I forgot the name, but there was a watch and but turning kind of backwards. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's against the run or like getting in love in Germany. Yeah. Like running against, right? Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. It has something to do with escaping.
I know, it's more like, you know, it's more like connected to this idea of Sisyphus, you know, trying to climb out up this hill with a stone. But also like us as humans, you know, trying. Because this time topic, for me, most of the times it's too kind of romantic, you know. Time for myself is not romantic at all. It's just this issue, this thing, influencing ourselves. And that's why we take it so serious. And we think so much about it because we are time limited, you know, things.
And this clock is more like, it's kind of trying to escape itself. It tries to escape the time but it can't. And it's like us, we are trying to escape, you know, to save time. I mean, alone, the, the, the To save time or to extend time. It's always about, like, trying to squeeze or stretch this time to whatever. But we can't influence it at all. We are just, you know, thrown in this kind of stream of time, but it It does things to us, but we can't do anything about it.
And that's why it's such a, um, important topic to us humans, but I see it very ironic how we try to always, you know, kind of struggle with this time thing all the time. What were you fighting for? Yeah, fine. But there's no way to escape it anyway.
I first met Alicia in 2018 when I visited her preview studio in Berlin. Even then, I was impressed by her hands on approach, both in creating her artwork and in managing her studio. In our final segment, you will hear about how she's balancing running her studio and full gear six years further into her career, while now also raising her four year old son. You've been very productive and I, again, just look at your website, how many exhibitions and then everywhere, like very different world.
I just wanted to remind you, we actually met in 2018 when you were still in your old studio. Yeah, that's true. You know, I should take out this photo I wanted to show you. Ah, that's true. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's 2018, April. Wow. Okay, cool. Yes, no, I remember. Exactly. Yes. And I remember I was very fascinated by how organized, like you, you know, I don't remember how big your team back then, and then now we're sitting in your new studio. So, How many people work in your studio?
Ah, too many. I think we are altogether 50. But it's not everybody is like full contract, right? So we have like 15 people like, you know, on full contract, and then a lot of freelance people. But I really mean it. You know, it was never my goal to get a big studio. It just kind of happened somehow. And it happened mostly because at some point I really started to focus on public and ultra public sculpture.
And this is kind of forcing you to work in teams and with teams, which is a great thing, of course, you know, it's just that sometimes I don't feel like, I mean, I don't want it to be like a business person, you know, I just never wanted to be this person to organize all of that. Of course, I have people who are organizing this for me, but still, you know, sometimes You're very much involved in all the details. Yes, I am. And I can't let it go. I don't know.
I'm possibly a control freak or something like that. I don't know. I can't. I simply can't. And that's why I love those people. And it's beautiful. And it's great because we can get all the things done very fastly all over the world, which is amazing. But of course it brings also all this kind of, you know, daily life problems of so many people being like on one spot. And actually, to be honest, I love to be alone. So I love, it's kind of, I'm really lucky when I'm alone.
It was always like that, even when I was a child. I always preferred to be on my own, since I was a kid. So I'm
missing that a little bit right now. This is kind of related to the first question we were talking about, the artist role, and how do you balance that? Artists, you need to have your own space for creating your art. And at the same time, like you said, you kind of naturally grow into, for example, managing the team. You used the word corporation earlier for, you know, different topic, but from what I see, you know, first time meeting you in 2018, you're old studio.
And now, you know, we came here a little bit earlier seeing your team, you know, very organized in a different rooms, a different purpose. And you're running exhibitions in the same time simultaneously in a different part of the world. That's a manager of a company.
I know, yeah, it is, somehow. But, no, I mean, it's great, for sure. It's just kind of somehow funny because of the people who know me a little bit better. I'm not a very organized person, actually. Myself. I hate things like cleaning up and, you know, like I'm really bad. I'm a mess, actually. And I think there's a deep desire of this empty, clean spaces and organized things, which I personally can't at all, you know?
And actually my first assistant, Philip, he's a very dear friend and an artist himself, he was kind of saying once to the new team members, he was like, you know, actually the task is to clean up the mess after Alicia.
They kind of organized her. How does that work after you have a little kid? I mean, yeah, even worse. You know why I'm asking this, right? Because I can't feel very much related. Yeah,
no, honestly, it's the only thing that I'm really missing, you know, the time. But I mean, it will come again, I'm sure. But it's like, you know, having a small child and an operation running like this here is like, I mean, I you know, I'm bringing him to the kindergarten rushing to be here on time, then like doing all whatever I have to do. Then, you know, looking at the watch and it's 6. 30 and I have to rush back to take over from the babysitter who was picking him up from Kita.
So, actually there's no time left at all. And then because the week is so full, of course, you know, I want to spend time with him, so I'm trying to have the weekends with him. But indeed, yes, I'm missing time for my own work. What I try to achieve sometimes here is that, you know, I'm taking kind of, that my partner's taking over one day or so, and I'm like, okay, I'm staying in the studio until night, you know, so I have this one day or two, depending on the schedules where I'm just here.
Long at night and I love it. Yeah, I try to, you know, escape like for one hour and two in between All the other fun here, but this is one point I'm really missing Yeah, because this is honestly and it's funny to say and probably a bit inhuman but the kind of purest One of the worst luck situations in my life is being alone in my studio with myself, having music loud on, and not being included in the rest of this world at all. And I'm missing that.
Well, that's very honest, but I mean, I work from home, so I don't have a studio, so I have nowhere to escape. That's why I enjoy living in Finland. That's true. You know, I go running or cycling in the woods. Even during a snow day, it's nice. Yeah, I'm also running a lot, but it just came also
with travels and cicada and whatever and jet lags.
Do you see the change after, I mean, besides of the daily routine in a more limited time of being alone, which is something I also, you know, feel very much related. How much do you think that made impact might be a wrong word and the different way of for you to make art? After you have your son for three and a half years, almost four years now. To
be honest, I'm not, I, you know, I, but it's, I did it on purpose. I don't want it to change. And why? Because people, you know, when I was like, obviously pregnant and the, you know, last month, I was not telling anyone until it was like month eight or something. And people feel like saying, Oh, your life is going to change completely. Everything's going to change completely. And I was so fed up about that. And so I kind of decided, no, I don't want my life to change.
I want to prove to you that it's not going to change. It's not your fucking business. So it was kind of, and, so I tried not, and actually it, of course it changed, like, you know, to the organization wise. Yes, of course, I can't stay here each night. Yes, of course, I'm trying to be home at the weekends. But my way of kind of working and seeing the world and, you know, the amount of my exhibitions, all of that hasn't changed at all. And even it increased.
I mean, I have to be more concentrated and faster. Because your timetable is so limited. It's limited, but it's fine. And it was kind of supporting this decision in myself. Whenever I got this first interviews after I got the chat, I don't even know how they knew. But it was like, the first question was always like, Oh, it must have changed for you and stuff. Your life has been, I was like, Why are you asking? I mean, it's like, what kind of question is that? You know?
And then I got really mean and erotic. I was like, you know, somebody's life can change because of a different haircut. You know? What the fuck? It's so, it's a always towards women. It's always towards women, because No, you almost, and it's also unfair also, you know, the guys' lives are changing or not. I mean, it's why I felt like it's so old fashioned. It's so stupid.
I mean, yes, it changed due to organizational things and stuff, but it kind of seems hard when I say that, but no myself and my life hasn't changed so much. I mean, I'm of course very beautifully enriched with this. Little human creature I can kind of love and see growing and it's like,
it's funny, you know? I don't know if it is something you would do ever if you have a group of young visitors like, you know My daughter's age because that's one of the things I'm planning to do taking her and her friends to go to the local museums to see a show with Animals and I'm struggling because it has been I will say compared to my other preparation for the shows This is very hard like I'm not What kind of questions I should ask them? What would you do?
I mean, I would just let them ask you, you know, just let them free.
I mean, they should probably Try to figure out themselves first because then you are not pre interpreting anything because I think we all have and it's so hard I mean, I think it's a saying Picasso said once and I don't like because I'm so much because of my sex But there's one nice saying and he said it takes a very long time to get young And it's you know to be kind of aware of kind of those filters We have and those kind of shapes we are in and to get rid of them again
I like that quote. It takes us a long time to be young. I mean, I feel like I'm going through that process, like remind myself, like how I used to be like this, but you know, growing up,
seeing it positively aging can be something very good to get younger again. So we're learning, learning curve.
Such a lovely conversation. Thank you. And I was very excited to come here and visit your new studio for the first time. Also, lots of stories you mentioned today give me a lot of kind of confirmation of my reaction to your artwork.
so much. I'm so happy that you've seen so many. I'm very impressed. I'd
like to give a big thank you to my friend Alicia for joining us as our guest on the Barefax podcast. This episode is brought to you by David Zoner. I'm your host and executive producer Luyang Jiang. Our content strategist is Boliang Shen. Our associate editor is Will Griffith. And our editing team is Mona Productions.
Check back soon for future episodes as we unpack the inner workings of the global art industry through exclusive, candid interviews with key players in the business, as they offer their perspectives on art and the market in the U S, Europe, Asia, and beyond.